Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Leo_Chan]

Where are you getting that from?

The options are laid out at the project website - http://www.relieflinenorth.ca/ The study area reaches to Markham along Steeles between Yonge and Victoria Park, which could provide significant relief to the Yonge Line.

Personally I like Option 3, which take over (or run along) the Richmond Hill GO line, allowing for it to reach Yonge Street quite cheaply and above-ground once it got to Lawrence. None of the alignments are lining up for Warden or Birchmount or "Town Centre".

I was responding to the question about the Relief Line North North to Highway 7, not the Relief Line North to Sheppard/Finch/Steeles. As for the RLN, options 3, 4, or 5 are all good. Also, assuming the RLN terminates at Victoria Park, there isn’t anything stopping it from continuing northeast instead of just staying on Victoria Park/Woodbine, similar to the Spadina Line. Can be build above ground in hydro corridors (between Rodick/Esna Park and warden and between McNichol and Finch). Kind of like this

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Yes, and what's Markham's current modal mix? Built form mix? That tells you all you need to know about those policies and their effectiveness.

As I'm sure you know as well as anyone, they are ahead of most suburbs both in the GTA and in general. If your point, writ large, is that there is little point promoting intensification and TOD in suburbs - because if Markham can't do it, no one else will - that's a bigger argument and you're right: all we need is the DRL, non-stop development in southcore and there's no reason whatsoever to gripe about Ford opening the Greenbelt. Let him scrap Places to Grow too - no point, the policies being ineffective and all.

For my part, despite their shortcomings, I take heart in Markham's evolution from what they built in the 70s/80s to Cornell to Markham Centre to Langstaff Gateway. It's a consistent path going in the right direction and far more laudable than what most of the other GTA suburbs have done, which is stick to what they know and treat the Places to Grow minimums as maximums. But no, let's pick on Scarpitti.

If the fact they didn't singlehandedly turn around the North American standard for development since WWII in a generation is proof in the pudding of failure to you, so be it. And if you think the policies are ineffective, you should talk to BILD and look at the difference in housing stock that was being built in Markham in 1988 and compare it to 2018. I feel differently, suffice to say.

As to these proposals - well, do you think they will sell as well absent the promise of a subway line?

That's a question for a developer. Ask the Gupta guys proposing 3,000 units where there's no subway. Ask Liberty how World on Yonge's 4 towers sold. Ask the Vanguard people, just south of there. Ask Mizrahi how many 40 storey towers they have coming across from Centerpoint.

Besides, everyone can take a 10-minute bus ride from Steeles to Finch anyway so "easy access to TTC subway" will go on the brochures either way.

As for the area closer to Highway 7, there's a group here that keeps asserting RER on the RH GO line will more than serve that need, so problem solved there too.

The major problem is that York Region does not pay a dime into the TTC outside of the farebox. With Vaughan, Torontonians are upset that they are subsidizing minimal riders that don't pay the property taxes necessary to actually fund the system.

Meh, I've always found this argument to be weak tea. Toronto famously only subsidizes 20% of operating costs. That means a Vaughan resident pays 80% of what a Toronto resident pays at the farebox and I don't think that 60 cents is quite enough for 416 residents to get all haughty. Call me when they properly subsidize TTC and stick to a transit plan for more than 3 years.

I agree the seat argument is largely an eye-roller. "I pay 60 cents more than YR residents and can't believe I get on the subway at Eglinton and can't get a seat!" So go live in York Region. Or Caledon. But definitely not New York City or Paris or London or Tokyo- you won't get a seat there either.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I honestly don't even understand what you think is ridiculous.
-At no point did I say walking around unbuilt areas affects reality. I said it would give Toronto-based reporters knowledge and/or understanding they might otherwise lack. Closing your eyes is no solution to the crowding either. IMHO, it is a failure of journalism to sit downtown and crow about Markham's hubris without providing context and I suggested Keenan is journalist enough to remedy that.

-At no point did I say one should ignore or not deal with the crowding issues. But understanding why they're happening is rather more practical than not building the extension and imagining you're doing anything but forestalling the inevitable. Indeed, that's precisely the thinking (or lack thereof) - not by York Region but by the City of Toronto Council, year after year, term after term - that has lead to the current situation in the first place. They FAILED to anticipate or deal with the increased ridership pressure at the north end of Line 1 and correspondingly FAILED to prioritize or advance or even properly conceive of the DRL until this extension reminded them. And even since then, they've prioritized the SSE and wasted precious years and dollars cancelling EAs, reversing decisions and otherwise failing to confront the problems we both acknowledge exist.

-If we're talking about ridiculous points, York Region refusing to conform to provincial policy is a great start. But, sure, "we" can not build out Yonge/7, by which I mean, York Region (and Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill) can turn down development applications and go the LPAT, use Keenan's Star article as evidence and see if it impresses the board members. Nothing easier in the world than stopping high-density development in the GTA these days!



Unfortunately, this is true of pretty much all our transit planning and I decry it on that level. Without all this, likely Transit city would have been built, and then the DRL and then we could be talking about this extension on its own merits, instead of having another SUBURBS vs. CITY battle royale.

The one caveat that makes it different from some of the other suburban lines is how fundamentally it's related to provincial growth policy. I won't belabour that point except to say the same urbanists who crow about urban sprawl and drivers talk out of the same side of their mouths attacking a "suburban" line that will unquestionably facilitate substantial urbanization, especially in comparison to what would otherwise happen in York Region. The subway to Vaughan might not be perfect but every person living and working in those towers is a person not working in some crappy industrial business park or further out in sprawlville.

I'm not against the Yonge Subway. I'm more not happy with all these York Region politicians completing ignoring the issues we have in Toronto, not you or any transit advocate. I would like to see YRT have a more developed local system.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

None of these things are mutually exclusive. I agree about the need to improve local service. As for the pols...Scarpitti is elected to fight for Markham and Toronto pols to fight for Toronto. Neither gives a hoot about the other. What I would like is something - and maybe it's a totally overhauled Metrolinx - where the pols from different municipalities work together for common interest but it remains a pipe dream for now.

In the meantime, my argument isn't so much that YNSE needs to go first but that it is fundamental to realizing the growth plans for this part of YR. Toronto doesn't care about that any more than Scarpitti cares about their DRL dithering. But since all the reporting comes from Toronto, it's only the one side that gets spun in the media. BOTH sides' frustrations which each other are equally valid; YR needs to understand the capacity issue and Toronto needs to understand that they're not selfishly trying to built some white elephant infrastructure that terminates in a meadow.

And we've created, thanks to years of neglect, a paradox where we are unable to build what needs to be built; what has Toronto hot and bothered is extending a subway that will generate substantial (suburban) ridership. All things being equal, that would be a good thing; it would be PRECISELY the subway you want to build. But we can't because we failed to build the DRL for generations and now there's no room. That's the trap we're in right now and it's frustrating as all get out to watch unfold.

 

[Richard White]

The major problem is that York Region does not pay a dime into the TTC outside of the farebox. With Vaughan, Torontonians are upset that they are subsidizing minimal riders that don't pay the property taxes necessary to actually fund the system. It also doesn't help that QP always gives Toronto the short end of the stick by fully (or partially, but usually at a greater ration) funding these things within York Region, but not within Toronto.

I agree. Honestly, York Region needs to stop interfering. If they want a subway, they can build and pay for a subway... oh wait.. they won't. They want a seamless connection to Downtown Toronto but want the City of Toronto to pay for it. If I walked into a VIA station and asked them for a free ride they would tell me off and ask me to pay. Why is this any different? If you want something you have to pay for it especially when the thing you want costs billions of dollars. You cannot expect someone else to pay for your pet projects if they are not even in their towns.

I would tell York Region to go eff themselves if they want us to pay for an extension just so their lives are easier. If they protest, QP can take over the system and the province can pay for it. I doubt people in North Bay, Kenora or Bancroft will be pleased with their tax dollars paying for a subway extension.

Why should the residents of Toronto pay for a subway extension into York Region just because the local mayor demands it?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I would tell Toronto that they elected a guy who promised he could deliver something called SmartTrack, which negated the need for the relief line and which would create capacity in a far shorter timeline and York Region took him at his word.

And I already responded to the notion York Region residents don't pay into the farebox; they pay roughly 80% as much as Torontonians, every time they ride TTC. Really - your analogy doesn't make sense as you seem to be confusing operating and capital expenses. Obviously people pay a TTC fare, no matter where they're from...

But I guess your point is really that I should get to ride free on the Crosstown, since Ontario paid for it and not Toronto? I assume the residents of Kenora are also being given lifetime passes? If Toronto wants an LRT along Eglinton they should build it at pay for it themselves, right?

 

[gweed123]

And I already responded to the notion York Region residents don't pay into the farebox; they pay roughly 80% as much as Torontonians, every time they ride TTC. Really - your analogy doesn't make sense as you seem to be confusing operating and capital expenses. Obviously people pay a TTC fare, no matter where they're from...

What about adding a surcharge when boarding at York Region stations to bring that to 100%? Perhaps build that into whatever co-fare agreement is worked out for people who are transferring from YRT to TTC. If you're going straight to TTC (Park and Ride within York Region), instead of the Presto fare being $3 it would be somewhere around $3.60, with the extra $0.60 representing what Toronto riders subsidize from property taxes.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I think obviously fares need to be reconfigured along those lines. Frankly, that's what should have happened before the Spadina extension opened and instead we have this mess at York University. Particularly if Ford is talking about subway uploading, it should be taking place in the context of fare integration, regional governance and whatnot, IMHO. But that won't be enough to satisfy many, I suspect.

 

[syn]

Alternative article:
The downtown-dwelling columnists who write about the extension should come up to Thornhill and Richmond Hill - or even just venture north of Eglinton one time - to see the intensification going on, and wonder what the future holds for the subway and commuting, regardless of whether the line goes north of Finch or not. Just ONE time, Ed.

I'm not saying - and have never said - they're wrong about the crowding. But if Ed Keenan actually walked around the planned Urban Growth Centre with RH's chief planner or something, he might have a better appreciation of the Catch 22 we're stuck in instead of another round of Toronto-centric hand-wringing.

EDIT: I read the article yesterday but just read it again and while I understand the issues, there's still something perverse about him objecting to politicians pushing for subway lines that will attract more riders to the system. It seems like it would be hard to do that while also writing articles about what a white elephant the SSE will be, but again, that's the Catch 22 we're in and saying "the subway is full!" isn't going to help unless you're prepared to enact quotas or check for 905 IDs at Finch Station. People going south live north of the subway terminal; it's just a fact of life.

He objects to politicians pushing for subway lines that will attract more riders when the Yonge Line is currently over capacity.

Nowhere does he state he's against extending the subway - he's against an extension when there are major problems to address first.

 

[W. K. Lis]

They could always "demand" that the City of Toronto annex the cities north of Steeles Avenue to get subway service. Just like how the Town of North Toronto demanded that streetcar service be extended. Vaughan could demand one zone for bus services into the Spadina leg, so other cities for the Yonge leg could for the Yonge leg.

 

[Rainforest]

I would tell Toronto that they elected a guy who promised he could deliver something called SmartTrack, which negated the need for the relief line and which would create capacity in a far shorter timeline and York Region took him at his word.

He never said SmartTrack will forever negate the need for the Relief Line. He said it will provide some relief for the time being, while the Relief Line is being studied and built.

York Region couldn't take him at his word, as he did not campaign in York Region.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

He never said SmartTrack will forever negate the need for the Relief Line. He said it will provide some relief for the time being, while the Relief Line is being studied and built.

that's a very generous spin/interpretation. Chow wanted DRL to be prioritized and he invented "SmartTrack" saying it would provide relief immediately and, yeah, they'll get to the DRL one day too. DRL was his priority BEFORE he came up with SmartTrack. He certainly didn't accelerate the DRL and I'll leave SmartTrack bashing for another thread but suffice to say, it won't be opening in 7 years and it obviously won't be offering sufficient relief to be relevant to this thread, or to negating the still-immediate need for the DRL.

That's the point.

York Region couldn't take him at his word, as he did not campaign in York Region.

This makes no sense. You can only believe someone in your jurisdiction?
SmartTrack goes into Markham so if decides not to build it, I'd be wrong to say, "York Region took him at his word that the Stouffville line would get RER service?"
He said SmartTrack would provide short-term relief to the Yonge line. Anyone who heard that, in Toronto, Timmins or Timbuktu, is entitled to take him at his word.
(And let's not get into what Civic Action-Era John Tory said about transit, before he was campaigning at all.)

 

[hw621]

^let's get this straight. JT is NOT building ST to Markham. The province is building Stouffville GO RER to Markham and JT is adding a few more stations to the line and branding it ST

 

[Amare]

DRL was his priority BEFORE he came up with SmartTrack.

This is exactly what happened. The DRL was once a priority for John Tory, until one day he came up with his little Smartrack fantasy in his sleep which then took precedence over the DRL. So much so, that Tory actually cut the number of staff who were working on the DRL to focus on his fantasy project.

He likes to spin it by saying that "work on the DRL is advancing and is in the planning stage" but what he often fails to mention, is that he's the one who's slowing down the planning process of the whole project thanks to his little fantasy project which only benefits a few thousand people in a city of 2.5+ million.

 

[robmausser]

that's a very generous spin/interpretation. Chow wanted DRL to be prioritized and he invented "SmartTrack" saying it would provide relief immediately and, yeah, they'll get to the DRL one day too. DRL was his priority BEFORE he came up with SmartTrack. He certainly didn't accelerate the DRL and I'll leave SmartTrack bashing for another thread but suffice to say, it won't be opening in 7 years and it obviously won't be offering sufficient relief to be relevant to this thread, or to negating the still-immediate need for the DRL.

That's the point.



This makes no sense. You can only believe someone in your jurisdiction?
SmartTrack goes into Markham so if decides not to build it, I'd be wrong to say, "York Region took him at his word that the Stouffville line would get RER service?"
He said SmartTrack would provide short-term relief to the Yonge line. Anyone who heard that, in Toronto, Timmins or Timbuktu, is entitled to take him at his word.
(And let's not get into what Civic Action-Era John Tory said about transit, before he was campaigning at all.)

Nothing Chow could have done to accelerate the DRL to the same pace that Smarttrack will be done. Even if she was able to advance it to be open a year early, it will still be complete way after GO RER/ST.

Building some above ground stations and putting up electrification on Ktichener/Stouffville, adding some tracks is light years easier than tunnelling under one of the most dense city areas in the country.

And with no interim relief from ST/GO-RER, we would still be waiting and waiting for more downtown transit, while the population goes up and up and up.

Meanwhile Union would continue to get busier and busier. With the GO RER/ST stations that will be built, it won't just give downtowners options for transit, it will let people get off GO before their train gets to Union.