Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Dan416]

How necessary is a Don Mills leg to the DRL in terms of diverting passengers from the Yonge line?

And how feasible would it be to join a DRL-Don Mills subway with the University-Spadina line at Union thereby terminating Yonge at Union? (I think this is even more desirable after learning the TTC never wanted the University line in the first place.)

Someone suggested this before and I keep thinking this is a great idea because demand on the University-Spadina line has always paled in comparison to the Yonge line. And if Yonge was run independently, it might allow it to run better. And the Don Mills-DRL and University-Spadina lines might be more equally matched in terms of ridership.

 

[reaperexpress]

How necessary is a Don Mills leg to the DRL in terms of diverting passengers from the Yonge line?

And how feasible would it be to join a DRL-Don Mills subway with the University-Spadina line at Union thereby terminating Yonge at Union? (I think this is even more desirable after learning the TTC never wanted the University line in the first place.)

I think Don Mills leg is not necessary as such, but would certainly have a very large positive impact. Huge numbers of people currently get to the Yonge line by feeder buses from Scarborough or Markham. If the DRL ends at Eglinton or Bloor, they will have no choice but to continue to ride the Yonge line. This portion of the line would only get more useful over time, with the construction of Markham Town Centre, and all the intensification in Scarborough and North York.

Someone suggested this before and I keep thinking this is a great idea because demand on the University-Spadina line has always paled in comparison to the Yonge line. And if Yonge was run independently, it might allow it to run better. And the Don Mills-DRL and University-Spadina lines might be more equally matched in terms of ridership.

It does make sense, but I wonder if the benefits are worth the cost.

How do we expect to benefit from having equally matched branches? The only reason I can think of is to allow the DRL/University line to run at lower frequency. If that is the case, then aren't we making the DRL/University line less attractive as an alternative, defeating the purpose of the line?

Personally I'd simply eliminate the rush-hour short turn at Glencairn to encourage people to take the University-Spadina line rather than the Yonge line. In addition to increasing frequency north of Glencairn, it would speed up the line by eliminating the delays caused by short-turning trains.

 

[Dan416]

It does make sense, but I wonder if the benefits are worth the cost.

How do we expect to benefit from having equally matched branches? The only reason I can think of is to allow the DRL/University line to run at lower frequency. If that is the case, then aren't we making the DRL/University line less attractive as an alternative, defeating the purpose of the line?

Personally I'd simply eliminate the rush-hour short turn at Glencairn to encourage people to take the University-Spadina line rather than the Yonge line. In addition to increasing frequency north of Glencairn, it would speed up the line by eliminating the delays caused by short-turning trains.

I think Don Mills-DRL-University-Spadina wouldn't necessarily run at a lower frequency. It could run at the same frequency as the Bloor-Danforth line. And the Yonge line could just run at the highest frequency it needed.

 

[Asterix]

Personally I'd simply eliminate the rush-hour short turn at Glencairn to encourage people to take the University-Spadina line rather than the Yonge line. In addition to increasing frequency north of Glencairn, it would speed up the line by eliminating the delays caused by short-turning trains.

The current AM short turn is at St Clair W. Apparently the TTC plans to extend it to Glencairn in the near future and likely to Downsview once the Spadina line extension is finished (2015?).

The only discernible delays with the St Clair W short turn are to those small numbers of passengers traveling northbound in the AM peak period who are turfed off and have to wait for the next train. With the pocket track just north of the station, the now-empty train is fed relatively seamlessly back into the southbound flow.

 

[gweed123]

I did a quick look, and I couldn't find it.
I recall that it was part of a Yonge subway extension document.

This gives some of the numbers for diversions.

This goes into more detail.

Of course, those are rose-coloured glasses reports designed to convince you that the Yonge subway can be extended without issue. They actually go so far as to say that the DRL is the absolute last resort.

Thanks!

 

[gweed123]

How necessary is a Don Mills leg to the DRL in terms of diverting passengers from the Yonge line?

Well just look at how efficient the University-Spadina line is at diverting passengers from the west off the Yonge line. I'd imagine you'd see similar numbers in the east.

And how feasible would it be to join a DRL-Don Mills subway with the University-Spadina line at Union thereby terminating Yonge at Union? (I think this is even more desirable after learning the TTC never wanted the University line in the first place.)

Someone suggested this before and I keep thinking this is a great idea because demand on the University-Spadina line has always paled in comparison to the Yonge line. And if Yonge was run independently, it might allow it to run better. And the Don Mills-DRL and University-Spadina lines might be more equally matched in terms of ridership.

Hate to gloat, but that was me who suggested it, haha. I included in one of my "fantasy proposals". Have the Yonge line operate independently from US, with it terminating at Union, and then have US and the DRL East run from VMC to the Science Centre, via Union.

 

[gweed123]

It does make sense, but I wonder if the benefits are worth the cost.

How do we expect to benefit from having equally matched branches? The only reason I can think of is to allow the DRL/University line to run at lower frequency. If that is the case, then aren't we making the DRL/University line less attractive as an alternative, defeating the purpose of the line?

Personally I'd simply eliminate the rush-hour short turn at Glencairn to encourage people to take the University-Spadina line rather than the Yonge line. In addition to increasing frequency north of Glencairn, it would speed up the line by eliminating the delays caused by short-turning trains.

Several benefits:

1) The lower frequency, as you mentioned. The US frequency is dictated by the frequency required on the Yonge line. Since the ridership on the US line would be similar to the DRL East, frequencies can be more accurately tailored to those lines.

2) Delays: If a delay happens anywhere on the YUS line currently, the entire service grinds to a halt. Having two operationally separate lines leading into downtown would allow users to use the other line should something occur on one of them (ie someone jumps onto the tracks at Dundas Stn, people use the USDRL instead). Right now, such an outage would cripple the entire line, and shuttle buses would likely need to be implemented.

3) The DRL would need a rebuild of Union anyway. Assuming the DRL is routed through Union (which it likely will be, although I prefer a Wellington alignment), Union station will need to be rebuilt in order to accomodate a new platform level. Have the Yonge line continue to use the upper level, while the USDRL uses the new lower level. During construction, the cross-over tracks north of St. Andrew could be used to terminate the US line there, until the tunnel between St. Andrew and Union is rebuilt to allow for trains to transfer to the lower level as well as continue into the upper level (a la between Spadina and St. George on the B-D line). This would allow for a pretty easy interlining operation as well, if warranted.

 

[reaperexpress]

The current AM short turn is at St Clair W. Apparently the TTC plans to extend it to Glencairn in the near future and likely to Downsview once the Spadina line extension is finished (2015?).

The only discernible delays with the St Clair W short turn are to those small numbers of passengers traveling northbound in the AM peak period who are turfed off and have to wait for the next train. With the pocket track just north of the station, the now-empty train is fed relatively seamlessly back into the southbound flow.

Oh, I was under the impression that they had changed it. I got the impression that there are delays caused by short-turning trains, because when I took the Spadina line in the AM peak, the train would often be held up just before St Clair West.

Several benefits:

1) The lower frequency, as you mentioned. The US frequency is dictated by the frequency required on the Yonge line. Since the ridership on the US line would be similar to the DRL East, frequencies can be more accurately tailored to those lines.

2) Delays: If a delay happens anywhere on the YUS line currently, the entire service grinds to a halt. Having two operationally separate lines leading into downtown would allow users to use the other line should something occur on one of them (ie someone jumps onto the tracks at Dundas Stn, people use the USDRL instead). Right now, such an outage would cripple the entire line, and shuttle buses would likely need to be implemented.

3) The DRL would need a rebuild of Union anyway. Assuming the DRL is routed through Union (which it likely will be, although I prefer a Wellington alignment), Union station will need to be rebuilt in order to accomodate a new platform level. Have the Yonge line continue to use the upper level, while the USDRL uses the new lower level. During construction, the cross-over tracks north of St. Andrew could be used to terminate the US line there, until the tunnel between St. Andrew and Union is rebuilt to allow for trains to transfer to the lower level as well as continue into the upper level (a la between Spadina and St. George on the B-D line). This would allow for a pretty easy interlining operation as well, if warranted.

Good points. I hadn't thought of the increased reliability but that is certainly a very valid reason. If they decide to make the DRL go to Union, this definitely should be a consideration.

 

[Asterix]

Oh, I was under the impression that they had changed it. I got the impression that there are delays caused by short-turning trains, because when I took the Spadina line in the AM peak, the train would often be held up just before St Clair West.

That's possible that there would be occasional minor delays northbound. Sometimes they haven't yet fed the previous short turned train back into the line and it is still in the pocket track when the next train is being emptied of passengers. The newly emptied train can't leave the station and pull into the pocket track until the other one moves out, hence delaying other northbound trains to the south of St Clair.

This hold up doesn't usually last more than a minute or so as they get the previous train back into service and open up the pocket track again.

 

[Electrify]

Why not run two branches: Eglinton to St. Clair West with trains every 1.5 minutes, and Finch to Downsview every 3 minutes. That would be a great way to deal with overcrowding between Eglinton and Bloor currently, and could allow the subway to extend without choking on too many new riders.

Hell, with automatic train control, let's go even further:

Rush hour:
Eglinton to St. Clair West (1 minute)
Finch to Downsview (2 minutes)
Richmond Hill Center to Vaughan Center (5 minutes)

Midday:
Eglinton to St. Clair West (2.5 minutes)
Richmond Hill Center to Vaughan Center (5 minutes)

Late nigh:
Richmond Hill Center to Vaughan Center (5 minutes)

 

[gweed123]

Why not run two branches: Eglinton to St. Clair West with trains every 1.5 minutes, and Finch to Downsview every 3 minutes. That would be a great way to deal with overcrowding between Eglinton and Bloor currently, and could allow the subway to extend without choking on too many new riders.

Hell, with automatic train control, let's go even further:

Rush hour:
Eglinton to St. Clair West (1 minute)
Finch to Downsview (2 minutes)
Richmond Hill Center to Vaughan Center (5 minutes)

Midday:
Eglinton to St. Clair West (2.5 minutes)
Richmond Hill Center to Vaughan Center (5 minutes)

Late nigh:
Richmond Hill Center to Vaughan Center (5 minutes)

Good idea in theory. But this assumes that you have enough capacity on the line to make this work. The fact is, even with very short headways out of Finch, the trains are nearly full. Doing a short service between Eglinton and St. Clair West would mean cutting the frequencies in half for everything north of those two points. For the Spadina line, that's fine, but I think it would cripple the Yonge line, and cause anybody getting on between NYCC and Eglinton would very likely be left waiting for a long long time.

 

[lafard]

That's possible that there would be occasional minor delays northbound. Sometimes they haven't yet fed the previous short turned train back into the line and it is still in the pocket track when the next train is being emptied of passengers. The newly emptied train can't leave the station and pull into the pocket track until the other one moves out, hence delaying other northbound trains to the south of St Clair.

This hold up doesn't usually last more than a minute or so as they get the previous train back into service and open up the pocket track again.

St Clair West is my home station.

It seems to work fairly well, though it can be a bit delayed if they make sure the train's empty before pulling it into the pocket track, and is a bit faster if the guard is in the last car instead of the fifth.

They don't seem to reinsert them in strict alternating order either, and it can cause a bit of congestion if several Downsview-origin trains come through before the short-turn is reinserted.

Not the most efficient setup, but it seems to work OK most days.

 

[BMO]

if the DRL was attached to the University-Spadina line, I think it would only make sense to extend the Yonge subway (which would then be ending at Union) all the way south to Queens Quay, so that the Harbourfront LRT's will not have to treck north to connect with the subway, and therefore not have to worry about the capacity of the Bay Tunnel, considering there could be three different lines going through it after East Bayfront is done, etc.

 

[nfitz]

if the DRL was attached to the University-Spadina line, I think it would only make sense to extend the Yonge subway (which would then be ending at Union) all the way south to Queens Quay, so that the Harbourfront LRT's will not have to treck north to connect with the subway, and therefore not have to worry about the capacity of the Bay Tunnel, considering there could be three different lines going through it after East Bayfront is done, etc.

I've often thought that the splitting the YUS at Union (or perhaps in this case at King or a new station at Front/Yonge) would make a lot of sense, given that the two legs of the YUS run so close together.

 

[ShonTron]

That's a great idea, except the DRL should also run to the northwest.

But that could be great idea to build a new waterfront station, with the crossover and pocket tracks after the platforms, for quicker train turnaround, avoiding those crawls you get now in later rush hours at Finch northbound or Kipling westbound.