Toronto Union Park | 303.26m | 58s | Oxford Properties | Pelli Clarke Pelli

Interesting timing, this will seriously impact Bay/Adelaide, 45 Bay and 43 Simcoe - with office buildings already under construction, certainly there isn't enough demand for four new huge office towers. I can't help but wonder if they aren't all chasing the same major tenant - some group that we are not aware of.

(not to mention the ICE office tower is approved and could start any time)
 
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Big Daddy said:
Interesting timing, this will seriously impact Bay/Adelaide and 45 Bay - with office buildings already under construction, certainly there isn't enough demand for three new huge office towers. I can't help but wonder if they aren't all chasing the same major tenant - some group that we are not aware of.

(not to mention the ICE office tower is approved and could start any time)
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Hmm, Bay Adelaide is a done deal and is about to start, 45 Bay is still a vision
if anything it will affect their own Richmond/Adelaide Centre-3 and maybe 1 York
 
fedplanner said:
I'm conflicted. Would Oxford really propose such a massive development and spend all this money on it to be strictly contingent on a casino? There has got to be more to the story.

I also see "supertalls." Just look how tall that one building towers over the 30-story condo at City Place. Here is a tip: try counting the floors. There is no way the towers are coming in that tall.
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In the excitement, I totally missed the label at the bottom of the rendering: For Massing/illustration only. I imagine Foster would give us something A grade given the location and prominence on the skyline but it's possible this is not it. However, the detail put into those two towers tells me that that's the idea he's going with. The more generic West towers make me believe that Foster is leaving it up to the casino operator since those hotel towers would be built atop the casino.

If we were to break this proposal up, the casino component is completely separate on the Western block from the convention centre block. OMERS didn't buy this property to leave it as is so if the casino doesn't get approved, I think that they'll build the office/condo towers because they can sustain themselves financially. The convention centre seems to me like the more needy for casino money. Decking over the rail tracks will not come cheap. It's a city asset, so if the casino doesn't go through, they city may be asked to contribute to redeveloping the convention centre.

In the end, without a casino, I think that OMERS would build their office and condo tower on the western block and look for other opportunities to redevelop the convention centre.
 
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Toronto_Dude said:
Long-time lurker, first-time poster.

What are people's thoughts on how this development (specifically the casino) may or may not cannibalize tourism in other parts of the city? Will we see tourists who never venture outside the casino/CN Tower/Aquarium area, leaving the ROM, AGO, Chinatown etc. in the lurch?
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I think of it this way.....

....if a tourist was only interested in casinos...they ain't coming here now...so they are not canabalizing anything.
....if you are an "artsy/museumy" tourist ......you could probably build 50 casinos and that won't take you out of the ROM AGO, etc.
...in the middle of those are the general tourists.....people who have a mix of interests, people who are maybe here on (or responsble for arranging) conventions....those people might spend part of a vacation in the casino and, to that extent, there is some canablization....but, on the other hand, if one more attraction grows the number of those tourists then all the things we have to offer are, perhaps, taking a slightly smaller percentage of a bigger tourist pie.
 
Filip said:
I don't understand this babying of society. If there are problem gamblers, it is not our responsability as a government and society to protect them from themselves. People should be free to make their decisions in life, no matter how poor.
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
 
The intensification of people downtown will definitely increase downtowns attractiveness for office space. I'm hopeful that the current trend for office space in the "905" reverses and more space is built downtown. I am an strong advocate for an active vibrant downtown and I would welcome the casino there. How many cities can you think of that have so much happening in their downtown core? Most cities push hockey arenas, baseball stadiums and aquariums to the suburbs but we have it all in walking distance downtown - and now we have the people here too.

Years ago I worked for a major company headquartered downtown. They were strongly considering moving head office to the suburbs at the end of their lease - because that's were the employees were. I believe this change will make downtown the ideal office destination for many many reasons. Maybe an office boom is our next "big thing".
 
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Would it be appropriate to look to New Orleans as an example of how a downtown casino can co-exist within an established and vibrant downtown? Looking to Detroit is not appropriate because the place was already a shithole before the casinos.
 
I think Council should attach a condition to this development: That all profits from the casino shall be directed towards a fund for the construction of the Downtown Relief Line.

Rob Ford would be stupid to oppose that. He will have unknowingly actually paid for a subway!
 
That wouldn't happen. Ontario is authorizing more casinos to increase general revenue. Perhaps Council can set a condition of a Toronto added tax to casino revenues that would go to a transit fund. Don't want to pay the Toronto casino tax then drive to Niagara Falls and spend about the same on gas.
 
MetroMan said:
That wouldn't happen. Ontario is authorizing more casinos to increase general revenue. Perhaps Council can set a condition of a Toronto added tax to casino revenues that would go to a transit fund. Don't want to pay the Toronto casino tax then drive to Niagara Falls and spend about the same on gas.
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Can't you just hear it now? Ford would oppose an additional, Toronto-added tax at the casino, because we're already taxed to the limit. :p

The problem I am having, in general, is the "Ontario" problem. The proceeds of this casino ought to be dedicated to Toronto's transit expansion, especially the big ticket items.
 
Big Daddy said:
The intensification of people downtown will definitely increase downtowns attractiveness for office space. I'm hopeful that the current trend for office space in the "905" reverses and more space is built downtown. I am an strong advocate for an active vibrant downtown and I would welcome the casino there. How many cities can you think of that have so much happening in their downtown core? Most cities push hockey arenas, baseball stadiums and aquariums to the suburbs but we have it all in walking distance downtown - and now we have the people here too.

Years ago I worked for a major company headquartered downtown. They were strongly considering moving head office to the suburbs at the end of their lease - because that's were the employees were. I believe this change will make downtown the ideal office destination for many many reasons. Maybe an office boom is our next "big thing".
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I've been wishing this for years but this makes no sense ... why would a casino all of the sudden make downtown more attractive for office development ... it wouldn't ...

I'm curious, what company are you referring too (and did they move in the end) ?

For all the talk of the reverse 416->905 migration, it really hasn't happened, sure less companies have moved out over the last 5 / 10 years, but very few have actually moved from the 905, there are a couple exceptions, though most of those have actually moved from the outer 416 but anyway ...

That's not what explains the growth in the core at all, its been the existing stock of tenants (i.e. the FIRE industry) expanding. In the outer core, its been the creative tech companies and the like (many start-ups) that have feuded this growth. On top of this their has been massive growth in the education / health care research industries, also predominantly located in the core ... though note health care in general is mainly Mississauga (and some parts of North York), but most of the research institutes are downtown.

But alas, the giant American corporations with their Canadian headquarters (predominantly in Mississauga, Markham, and Richmond Hill [ in that order ]), have yet to consider the core (or even the outer 416).


Anyway the point is, this development will not change anything whatsoever in this regard ... it will not make the core less or more attractive to anyone in terms of where to locate their offices.
 
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MetroMan said:
That wouldn't happen. Ontario is authorizing more casinos to increase general revenue. Perhaps Council can set a condition of a Toronto added tax to casino revenues that would go to a transit fund. Don't want to pay the Toronto casino tax then drive to Niagara Falls and spend about the same on gas.
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But either way, the money will be coming from some sort of general revenue. Whether it's actual general revenue or something like a transit sales tax remains to be seen. But either way, it will be the public paying for it.

All this proposal would do is grab the money on it's way IN to the Provincial coffers, as opposed to begging and praying that enough money will eventually come OUT of the Provincial coffers.
 
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