Toronto St. Clair West Transit Improvements | ?m | ?s | TTC

[junctionist]

How so, it's perfect east of Avenue i.e. before the LRT goes underground ... the fact there are no retail shops has nothing to do with the built form ... I think Not really sure what the 'build form' is in this case.

What's perfect? The built form (the buildings around the street) provide decent to excellent population and employment density with little retail at ground level. Maybe you meant the actual infrastructure. In that case, yes, it was pretty much done according to the plans and "perfect". Most of St. Clair, however, needs attention to important final details and there seems to be little enthusiasm to finish it quickly. Where's the enthusiasm? It seems like most city departments treat maintenance and beautification as a liability rather than a prime opportunity to express their pride in their city.

Anyway, how was it further west? - where the LRT resurfaces that's the area hurt worst by construction - last time I took a ride a did see a few new establishments but still a long way to go. The condo's going up in the area should help matters ... slowly ...

As I said, it was generally more vibrant to the west. There were some new businesses but compared to the Avenue Road area, it was a lot better in terms of how many people were on the street.

On the streetcars, one can see the storefronts, where the store's sign becomes an advertisement for the store.

On the subway, one sees only the advertisements on the subway walls. Hopefully, some stores have put their own ads in the stations in their vincinity, but I don't know if the TTC would except ads for just one or two ads in a single station.

Stores and commercial areas which promote themselves as being accessible by subway also tend to do well. It's not surprising; plenty of cities have only subway networks yet still have plenty of vibrant neighbourhood commercial areas. Streetcars aren't a prerequisite.

 

[Justin10000]

Stores and commercial areas which promote themselves as being accessible by subway also tend to do well. It's not surprising; plenty of cities have only subway networks yet still have plenty of vibrant neighbourhood commercial areas. Streetcars aren't a prerequisite.

[/quote]

Cities built extensive streetcar networks before they built their metro networks. It's not hard to argue neighbourhoods built around streetcar lines.

 

[mikeb]

I didn't notice any of those predatory 'Cheque Cashing' business' that are all over my area of the city, and I didn't notice any Pawnshops either- another business that is associated with crime quite often. St. Clair looks like a real thriving part of the city.

There are a bunch of Cheque Cashing businesses on St Clair West. Heading westward, you would have passed at least 3 by the time you get to Oakwood. There are more after that.

 

[mikeb]

I cycled down St. Clair from Yonge to Keele yesterday to take in the ROW project. It's taken so long, but the street light poles around St. Clair West are still crooked old concrete poles but with the new "heads" mounted on them. West of that, a long stretch of St. Clair still has the thick black hydro wire along the side of the road. The most unfortunate part was that pretty much every signalized intersection gives priority to left turning cars with what's a relatively long light cycle. It's not like on arterials where some intersections have priority for left turns and some don't.

Also, St. Clair and Avenue Road, in spite of all its density and beautiful architecture, was surprisingly dead. It really made the lack of business space at that new condo at Avenue Road, The Avenue, seem all the more unfortunate. There were some pedestrians but the numbers were fickle and seemed to consist of locals. Just one cafe could have provided a destination for the many people in the area and enhanced street life.

You probably noticed that west of Dufferin is ripped up, again. In the same area, the new trees that were planted in the middle of the sidewalk have all been cut down. By who, I don't know. The reason, possibly that they were dead or that they are right in the way of pedestrians. The old trees that reside close to the road and have been untouched. The patches of dirt that housed these small trees are now covered with weeds and little stumps.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Cities built extensive streetcar networks before they built their metro networks. It's not hard to argue neighbourhoods built around streetcar lines.

New York seems to have done just fine with it's extensive metro network. The pre-existance of some sort of streetcar route beforehand not withstanding cities generally don't suffer when it's "possible patrons" move underground from above ground.

 

[janschot]

Brooklyn, as populous and more dense than Toronto, was mostly developed around streetcar routes. The famous Brooklyn Dodgers baseball team were originally named the 'Trolley Dodgers' because the city had so many streetcars.
It's also interesting to note that much of New York's train system is elevated, particularly outside of Manhattan.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Brooklyn, as populous and more dense than Toronto, was mostly developed around streetcar routes. The famous Brooklyn Dodgers baseball team were originally named the 'Trolley Dodgers' because the city had so many streetcars.
It's also interesting to note that much of New York's train system is elevated, particularly outside of Manhattan.

And so the exception now provides the rule...

Isn't the common knowledge today that elevated structures are a detriment to urban design? The shadows, the noise, the structure looming over the pedestrians below. I suppose we should be building elevated streetcars/LRT's today.

 

[ShonTron]

It depends on how elevated structures are built, and where they are built. Overhead concrete guideways, like that of Vancouver's Skytrain isn't an eyesore. But say under Wabash Street in Chicago or Roosevelt Avenue in Queens it is, as the old steel structure, right above congested commercial streets, it is.

 

[junctionist]

Cities built extensive streetcar networks before they built their metro networks. It's not hard to argue neighbourhoods built around streetcar lines.

Building neighbourhoods around streetcar lines is just one way of building vibrant areas. If metro networks also sustain these areas, then streetcars can hardly be a prerequisite. Also, note that commercial areas built around streetcar lines can decline dramatically like Queen did and that streetcars run through (and previously ran through) areas that aren't very vibrant.

 

[Justin10000]

New York seems to have done just fine with it's extensive metro network. The pre-existance of some sort of streetcar route beforehand not withstanding cities generally don't suffer when it's "possible patrons" move underground from above ground.

New York had an extensive streetcar/street railway network before the first elevated/undergound line was built. There is no mention of neighbourhoods suffering because of metros. Where did you even read that?

 

[duper]

New York had an extensive streetcar/street railway network before the first elevated/undergound line was built. There is no mention of neighbourhoods suffering because of metros. Where did you even read that?

I remember reading that areas like the Annex suffered in the short term when the YUS line made it to St. George. Suddenly the younger U of T students didn't need to shop in the immediate vicinity. That was short lived, though.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

New York had an extensive streetcar/street railway network before the first elevated/undergound line was built. There is no mention of neighbourhoods suffering because of metros. Where did you even read that?

Posted by others...

I live not too far from Danforth East and I have a good friend who lived in this city since he arrived in this city as a young man in the 1950's. He tells me that when the Danforth had streetcars, before the subway was put in that stretch, tge area had better stores as well. Good clothing stores and dining were easily found. I think that streetcars supports local business' better then subway but the subway is much quicker to get downtown of course- unfortunately small business' pay the price.

The implication being that the metro (singlehandedly) brought about the percieved decline of Danforth ave

On the streetcars, one can see the storefronts, where the store's sign becomes an advertisement for the store.

On the subway, one sees only the advertisements on the subway walls. Hopefully, some stores have put their own ads in the stations in their vincinity, but I don't know if the TTC would except ads for just one or two ads in a single station.

Again, the implication is that a metro has a negative impact on surrounding business; or more specifically that Streetcars/LRT's are more positive than metros

Cities built extensive streetcar networks before they built their metro networks. It's not hard to argue neighbourhoods built around streetcar lines.

in response to...

Stores and commercial areas which promote themselves as being accessible by subway also tend to do well. It's not surprising; plenty of cities have only subway networks yet still have plenty of vibrant neighbourhood commercial areas. Streetcars aren't a prerequisite.

Again, all vibrant communites were built up around streetcars and metros had at best a neutral impact.

And finally

I remember reading that areas like the Annex suffered in the short term when the YUS line made it to St. George. Suddenly the younger U of T students didn't need to shop in the immediate vicinity. That was short lived, though.

Need I cite more examples of the "Streetcars are superior to metros in building vibrant communities" and the "Metros do not contribute to vibrant communites and at best have no impact"?

I mean this is a St. Clair LRT thread and I agree that this street is well suited to LRT operation but come on. Subways cause decline of business districts?

 

[nfitz]

The implication being that the metro (singlehandedly) brought about the percieved decline of Danforth ave?

The Metro only opened on Danforth in 2009, near Victoria Park; I've seen no degradation since then. Perhaps it was mainly because of the meat?

 

[Justin10000]

The implication being that the metro (singlehandedly) brought about the percieved decline of Danforth ave



Again, the implication is that a metro has a negative impact on surrounding business; or more specifically that Streetcars/LRT's are more positive than metros


in response to...


Again, all vibrant communites were built up around streetcars and metros had at best a neutral impact.

And finally



Need I cite more examples of the "Streetcars are superior to metros in building vibrant communities" and the "Metros do not contribute to vibrant communites and at best have no impact"?

I mean this is a St. Clair LRT thread and I agree that this street is well suited to LRT operation but come on. Subways cause decline of business districts?

I should worded my post better. I never said neighbourhods suffer because of metros.Why are you putting my name on other members quotes? It looks like I made those quotes. Please correct it.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Metro absolutely brought about the decline of our Dominion.