Toronto St. Clair West Transit Improvements | ?m | ?s | TTC

[FutureMayor]

Vaughan Subway Line Rant and Mississauga BRT and LRT

There are no actual indications that the line will be extended to VCC - such a plan only exists in the very preliminary stages, and as others have mentioned, your formula assumes that the funding will be provided equally from all 3 levels of government (which is unlikely, given the fiscal climate).

I know for a fact that this project depends on 1/3 equal funding from all levels of government. The province of Ontario is giving exactly 1/3 of the cost of this Vaughan Subway Line and York and Toronto is expected to contribute 1/3 of the cost. This is the case well ALL the transit projects including Brampton and Mississauga's.

The $2 billion plus figure is the true cost of the Vaughan subway line and was outlined in today's Toronto Star. Remember this line will have to tunnel underneath Highway 407 which isn't going to be cheap.

As to the isuse of public outrage over this - incidentally, empty fields is exactly what the 403 transitway runs along. Where is the public outrage over this poorly thoughtout proposal based on dubious planning principles?

There are clear differences between Missisauga and Vaughan. For one Mississauga isn't building an underground subway line under empty fields. Mississauga is building an above ground bus only line.

Two, Mississauga has built huge transporation nodes and demand along the Transitway, most notebly the Airport Corporate Centre, Mississauga City Centre and Erin Mills Town Centre which is also experiencing it's own mini condo boom and has tons of potential for intensification.

The purpose of the Mississauga Transitway is provide express cross town service for riders between the Subway, MCC and far off places like Erin Mills.

As doady mentioned, the Mississauga segment is the first phase of a cross regional transitway for GO Transit.

FutureMayor, don't you work for the city of Mississauga? No offence, I dont know that I see you as the most impartial commentator on this issue.

mpolo2, I work in Communications for the a local Member of Provincial Parliament. I think I've been clear about my bias towards Mississauga, heck my name is FutureMayor. However, in this case I'm not even advocating a subway line to Mississauga, I'm advocating for the redirection of huge transit funding towards other more urgent and worthy projects like Scarborough, new LRT lines for the Waterfront, and all day GO Train services for the GTA.

Is this second subway thread really necessary? Its just FutureMayor's personal soapbox.

Suicidal Gingerbread Man, this is my own personal rant, and I believe it's an important one that needs to be heard. We are going to to be spending $2 billion of public funds towards a subway line out to the middle of nowhere.

I also would rather see Mississauga improve transit along the roads too like it is planning for Hurontario but this transitway is for regional transit, not local transit.

doady, I was with the Mayor and senior staff this morning for a press conference and the buzz in the room is that LRT along Hurontario will become the number one priority for the city now that we have the Transitway funding is fully secured. A Hurontario LRT is coming much sooner than you think.

Louroz

 

[doady]

Re: Vaughan Subway Line to NOWHERE!

As to the isuse of public outrage over this - incidentally, empty fields is exactly what the 403 transitway runs along. Where is the public outrage over this poorly thoughtout proposal based on dubious planning principles?

The difference is that the transitway is half the cost of the subway to VCC and will be 10 times the length, have 14 stations instead of 1, travel through an already busy bus corridor, connect to much more bus routes, connect to much busier bus routes, and has a higher projected ridership (10k riders per hour in the peak direction by 2010). And MCC is much denser than VCC, no?

Basically yes. Honestly, I am all for investing in public transit in Mississauga, but it would make far more logical sense to use existing arterial roads for such systems - Like Burnhamthrope, Eglinton, etc - there is already a good level of ridership along these routes, not to mention, development opportunities along the corridors. Putting a transitway on 403 would not have such a level of synergy at all.

I also would rather see Mississauga improve transit along the roads too like it is planning for Hurontario but this transitway is for regional transit, not local transit. It does not serve the same purpose. People from all over the GTA will be using this transitway, not just Mississauga.

 

[Mike in TO]

The line will most likely be built in two stages.

Another key factor to consider is that the federal government is much more likely to chip in $670 million if the line goes all the way to VCC. So far this discussion has only been about York contributing - but politically it was the smart move to go the VCC - the feds have shown a willingness in prov-fed infrastructure talks to consider funding this (and other announced projects). To get federal buy in (and hopefully $670 million) the line must cross jurisdictions into 905.

Sadly Are Be is right - this line needs to go the VCC to get federal buy in and if Toronto wants to move forward on its section of the line it needs federal funding.

 

[Ed007Toronto]

VCC will be fine as long as they totally rezone for highrises. There's nothing there right now that can't be torn down in a week.

One other thing to consider, if this really does reduce congestion on the Yonge line by a significant amount, then a Yonge extension to Richmond Hill can finally be looked at. My understanding is a Yonge extension would be profitable fairly quickly.

 

[thenay]

They should stop at steeles, wasn't that the initial plan?

If they want to go to the VCC now, won't enviromental assesments be done and such (which will cost an X amount of $). They have an Ikea, AMC 30, and a bunch of other stores, but there's hardly any houses in that area.

Atleast with the York University stop 40,000+ people attend, and atleast 5,000 people would take it everyday. I know many people drive (the parking lots are crazy full and expensive too!)

 

[dan e 1980]

stop it at steeles. extend it to VCC in about 175 years from now.

 

[Chuck100]

One thing that I'm pleased about is that this will start a debate on the fare structure between the TTC and the 905 regions. It may even spark a debate about zones within Toronto.

What do you think of this idea: rather than having zone based fares, have zone based taxes. No matter how long your trip is or where you're going, transit costs more to provide in suburban areas. Make it so that the farther out you live, the more taxes you pay toward the transit system much like fare zones. The result is that no matter where you live in the GTA, which transit systems you use, or how far you're going, you pay a flat fare of $2.50.

 

[drum118]

One other thing to consider, if this really does reduce congestion on the Yonge line by a significant amount, then a Yonge extension to Richmond Hill can finally be looked at. My understanding is a Yonge extension would be profitable fairly quickly.
______________________________________________

The answer is no.

The Yonge line will not see a decrease in riders from the 905 with this extension as large numbers of them work along the line in the first place and it is closer to them.

The Yonge extension to Richmond is far far off in the distance since it has enough problems trying to get to Steeles let alone Hwy 7 these past years. Building it to Steeles would take most of the buses off Yonge that are caught up in traffic most of the day now.

Still waiting for the Yonge ROW from Steeles to Finch and that would solve some of the problems that are there now.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Still waiting for the Yonge ROW from Steeles to Finch and that would solve some of the problems that are there now."

I don't know if they've done anything in particular to help Yonge buses, but they do travel up to Steeles faster now than they did a few years ago. I've noticed an improvement this year.

 

[spmarshall]

What do you think of this idea: rather than having zone based fares, have zone based taxes. No matter how long your trip is or where you're going, transit costs more to provide in suburban areas. Make it so that the farther out you live, the more taxes you pay toward the transit system much like fare zones. The result is that no matter where you live in the GTA, which transit systems you use, or how far you're going, you pay a flat fare of $2.50.

That's in one sense a great idea - but I can see some problems.

One summer I worked and lived in Brampton - and rode my bike to downtown Brampton when the weather was acceptable. Thereby I cost the transport system nothing, apart from my miniscule share of maintenance costs towards roads and trails. But living in Brampton, I would be seriously penalized under your scheme.

I now live in a part of North York that was built in the 1950s/1960s, fairly close to the subway. I use the TTC every day, for multiple trips, costing much more to the transit network. However, I'd be paying less in tax because I live in a mid-distance 416 suburb.

Doesn't quite work. Fare-by-distance is much more fair, though I understand what you mean about transit being more expensive to operate generally the farther out you are.

 

[cacruden]

Two big issues with the current extension and potentially further extensions...


1. Before ANY extension goes through, the city [whichever city] has to have the land rezoned to be a high-density corridor (including the necessary costs for improving services to support such density). Without that you will just get subway lines that are a drain on operating costs.

2. Before the current system extends beyond Toronto, the system should be changed to a zone system -- with multiple zones within Toronto itself (hopefully lower fairs for short-hopes downtown).

Right now you just have politicians throwing money without the proper planning to make the system effecient.

 

[jeicow]

Anyone (most likely FM/doady) know if the Transitway funding includes the station under Rathburn @ the terminal or is that stationg going to be above ground?

 

[dan e 1980]

VCC will be fine as long as they totally rezone for highrises. There's nothing there right now that can't be torn down in a week.

but every unit would probably be built with 3 parking spaces. people that would live there would more than likely have a car and probably wouldn't use the TTC that often. steeles is far enough. people can drive to the parking lot and take transit if they need to. if they're gonna build it any further, build it all above ground.

 

[FutureMayor]

jeicow, the underground station under Rathburn is not part of this plan. It's still in the books to be built one day.

Louroz

 

[Observer Walt]

samsonyuen: The route has to cross the CN main line trakcs just north of Steeles, then Hwy. 407. Depending on the exact route, there might also be a large cemetery in the way (east side of Jane, just south of 407). Cemeteries can't be disturbed. This subway would have to be underground.

There seems to be a consensus forming on this thread that a Spadina subway extension north of Steeles is problematic.