Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

And yes, to further confirm the point above, I will actively lobby against an east end DRL if it means the west end gets ignored once again. We have our own unique set of issues that the east end does not have. The only reliable method to solve it would be a DRL to Dundas West (minimal).

The Relief Line has to start somewhere. Money is limited. The east side is far more important than the west. It makes sense to use the eastern Relief Line as a starting point for the western Relief line. Advocating against building any Relief Line is detrimental to our transit efforts all across the region and will delay the western Relief Line even further since there will be no starting point for that line. You're being an idiot.
 
This is Toronto, if we build the east only, the west might have to wait another 20 years for that line to get built. That's time we don't have and cannot afford.

WislaHD: yes, I fully support WWLRT. That is one of the only LRT lines from Transit City that I fully supported. It made sense. TTC has confirmed, however, there is no appetite to build this line in the next 30 years.

And yes, to further confirm the point above, I will actively lobby against an east end DRL if it means the west end gets ignored once again. We have our own unique set of issues that the east end does not have. The only reliable method to solve it would be a DRL to Dundas West (minimal).

May I ask why you would prefer that nothing get built to having the east side only DRL get built? If the east part gets built the DRL to Dundas West is at least a possible extension. If it doesn't then the western part won't ever get built.
 
You may say its worse but that does not make it so. And are you trying to say the east end of Toronto is more developed
along the DANFORTH COMPARED TO the west end along BLOOR? Thats wrong. If you travel along Danforth, I do not see condos yetI see more and more coming in the west. The east along Danforth is more run down. I do believe the Great Fire in Toronto caused develpment to switch to the west. Whats this, with the east more deveoped nonsense coming from?

I never said that the east side is more developed. Please don't try to put words in my mouth. I said that the subways & streetcars on the east are just as crowded & unreliable.
 
The Relief Line has to start somewhere. Money is limited. The east side is far more important than the west. It makes sense to use the eastern Relief Line as a starting point for the western Relief line. Advocating against building any Relief Line is detrimental to our transit efforts all across the region and will delay the western Relief Line even further since there will be no starting point for that line. You're being an idiot.

Bang on. I'd also like to point out that the DRL East and DRL West have different "relief" goals. The DRL East is to relieve the Yonge Subway, and specifically Bloor-Yonge. The DRL West is to relieve streetcar routes, the bulk of which travel much further west of Yonge than they do east of Yonge. It's subway network relief vs surface network relief.

Both will be getting incremental capacity improvements with new vehicles, and the Yonge line will be getting new signalling. I would say that the subway relief at this time is the more urgent issue though, because streetcar congestion is a detriment to the people who use streetcars, but congestion on the Yonge line south of Bloor is a detriment to everyone coming via subway from both the north and eastern parts of the city.
 
The Relief Line has to start somewhere. Money is limited. The east side is far more important than the west. It makes sense to use the eastern Relief Line as a starting point for the western Relief line. Advocating against building any Relief Line is detrimental to our transit efforts all across the region and will delay the western Relief Line even further since there will be no starting point for that line. You're being an idiot.

Exactly. And you made a great point about most commutes ending up on downtown streetcars after taking the subway.
 
A person, say, at Dufferin/Queen is not getting much relief from the Spadina/University line. This is not a discussion about northwestern parts of the city.

And how does the amount of people coming from that area compare to the amount of people who need relief on the Yonge Subway.

Quite frankly, what it is is that I am no longer open to financing transit improvements that make no difference to me whatsoever (no improvements in my area, yet stratospheric growth). DRL west would provide massive improvements to South Etobicoke by having the streetcar terminate before hitting the nightmare called Queen.

You're being incredibly selfish.

With all of the capital investments in our transit system, the only thing that will directly improve my commute experience is the new Toronto Rocket subway cars. I live downtown and even the Relief Line won't do much (if anything) to improve the commutes of me or my family. However I still 100% support the 70km+ of new LRT/subways and the tens of billions of dollars that we'll be seeing over the next few years. I'd hope that you could recognize that even if something doesn't directly benefit you, it is still wise to support it. Any transit improvements in the region benefits everyone (I hope you don't need me to explain why).
 
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Wow. If it doesn't directly benefit someone directly & immediately, they not only don't support it, but actively work against it. They would prefer others in the city actually have worse transit if they don't personally benefit.

I never take GO transit but I support improving & increasing GO service, because lots of other GTA residents do take it.
I never go up to Sheppard East or Finch West, but I support those LRTs because it will be a big improvement over buses for the people that live there.
I never go to Scarborough, but I support the Danforth McCowan subway extension.
I support improving bus service in the suburban areas I never go to.
I would support the DRL going up Weston, even though I'd probably never use it.

I'd like our transit system improved in general so we can improve our city.
 
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Wow. If it doesn't directly benefit someone directly & immediately, they not only don't support it, but actively work against it. They would prefer others in the city actually have worse transit if they don't personally benefit.

I never take GO transit but I support improving & increasing GO service, because lots of other GTA residents do take it.
I never go up to Sheppard East or Finch West, but I support those LRTs because it will be a big improvement over buses for the people that live there.
I never go to Scarborough, but I support the Danforth McCowan subway extension.
I support improving bus service in the suburban areas I never go to.
I would support the DRL going up Weston, even though I'd probably never use it.

I'd like our transit system improved in general so we can improve our city.

I support all of those, however, for DRL I insist that it relieve the west as well. You can't put all your transit improvement baskets into the north/east of the city. That is not fair to the millions of taxpayers who suffer through suboptimal transit in the west and now have to bankroll further improvements to the east (to the detriment of themselves).

Either the DRL supports both the east/west or it doesn't support either. I'm just done with billions spent on improvements that mean nothing to me (and the piddly $18MM we asked for the Humber Bay Loop relocation was again denied due to budget constraints).

I hope you see my point.
 
A decent case to wait on the western leg of the DRL
My concern with regards to adding the western portion of the DRL next, is 3 fold.

1: It does not appear to create substantial additional connectivity;

2: The University side of the line does not appear full yet, and there are 2 transfer points here, so station capacity should not be near the breaking point;

3: It would likely cause pressure to eliminate what I perceive as a better plan, that is the Waterfront West LRT, running through the North edge of the Exhibition grounds.

This LRT cannot directly serve the entire area, however it can provide some real relief.

Steve, is there a plan to have transfer points for the Waterfront West LRT [with] the 501 and 504. Are there options between say Roncesvalle and Jamieson to build some sort of good transfer?

If you could do this at say Roncesvalle, you could maybe transfer some of the existing load from 501 and 504 onto the LRT, and send more lightly loaded streetcars east.

Steve: Depending on the route chosen, there are various options. The original proposed route went up Dufferin and out King Street from the CNE. I don’t think this is viable based on existing service levels and congestion on King. Another proposal linked the WWLRT in at the Queen & Roncesvalles intersection, although the connection with the 504 would not be ideal depending on the configuration of this link. The one that was preferred by the City (this is in the Miller era) made the connection further west with the LRT continuing along a reconfigured Lake Shore out to Colbourne Lodge Drive (the south entrance of High Park).

I see the LRT options in my mind as being a more effective lower cost option that needs to be explored, prior to spending mega bucks on a subway. I fully support a Don Mills line, because Steve has made it clear that, to get an LRT through the East side to support the NE area is nearly impossible south of the Valley. Transfer wise, the next logical point is Eglinton, in that it will connect with the Crosstown, and there are many other potential corridors here. I would not support this line going further north without substantial proof that there is no other viable option and the demand was there.

Having said that I think an LRT should be completed to serve the area at least as far as Roncesvalles, and given existing lines for Streetcars, should really be run farther west. It should interconnect with the GO at least at Exhibition and Union, ideally per initial Longbranch. Money spent on this corridor would go much farther than if it is spent on a subway.
 
A decent case to wait on the western leg of the DRL

Interesting that that suggestion is predicated on the assumption that it needs to be a transfer, and by extension that the WWLRT needs to be standard gauge rail. If it used TTC gauge, you could run 3 routes via the WWLRT: Long Branch to Union (via existing Lake Shore West track), Dundas West to Union (via existing Roncesvalles track), Bathurst to Union (via existing Bathurst track).

I don't really see the need to use standard gauge rail, and by extension TC LRVs on the Waterfront West line. TC LRVs and TTC LRVs are almost identical in terms of passenger capacity, except TC vehicles can be paired. Using TTC gauge for everything south of Bloor would open up so many more options in terms of routing. Not to mention it could use existing garages.
 
How about building WWLRT and DRL from King-->Pape (or w/e route) congruently? Then focusing on other extensions of the DRL after shoveling begins on those lines?

I think DRL West would kill the WWLRT. :(
 
How about building WWLRT and DRL from King-->Pape (or w/e route) congruently? Then focusing on other extensions of the DRL after shoveling begins on those lines?

I think DRL West would kill the WWLRT. :(

The phasing that I see is this:

1) Build the DRL East and WWLRT concurrently. Feed the 3 routes I mentioned above (Lake Shore West, Roncesvalles, and Bathurst) into it.

2) Build the DRL West along King to near Dufferin, then swing up Dufferin to Bloor. Extend the Lake Shore West route through a tunnel from Roncesvalles & Queen to Dufferin & Queen (connection with DRL West), emerging just east of Dufferin and continuing as the Queen streetcar. Roncesvalles and Bathurst routes continue to use the WWLRT.

3) Create a new streetcar ROW on the Queensway, and have every 2nd car go via WWLRT, and every other car via Queen tunnel to Dufferin.

The DRL will certainly impact the WWLRT, but there's a way they can both co-exist and still serve a valid function.
 
just lengthening the Streetcar ROW along Lakeshore coupled with a DRL stop at Roncesvalles and Queen for transfers will be fine IMO.
 

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