Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[ehlow]

No....I am just saying that there are a lot of transit needs and it is not as clear to me as it seems to be to other people that this is a no brainer first priority....so when I ask others who feel that I get this common reply that it is all about YB's congestion.....and it would seem to me that a) if the congestion is so bad why are not people using already existing alternative routes that avoid YB and b) for the money being spent on the DRL is there not something that can be done to YB for less that addresses that congestion?

So you want to wait until our subway system to be so overloaded that both N-S lines are impossible to use before building another N-S line? Also note that it will take probably at least 10 years until it's built. 10 years of continued growth of the city and continued overcrowding of the subway and streetcars.

DRL has multiple purposes. One is to relieve Yonge for all the reasons stated above including drum118's great post. Another is to provide much better E-W transit through downtown. Building a new subway line provides better transit for new areas that aren't covered. The streetcars are over capacity already and the amount of development downtown is insane.

We are a extremely quickly growing city with an overloaded transit system, and it will need more capacity in the core.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

DRL will have light ridership between the Danforth and Eglinton, bringing it to Sheppard is nuts, at least in the near term. Mind you by the time it is built to Eglinton, we very well may be able to discuss bringing it to sheppard, but opening day for something like that is 30 years off minimum.

Mind that between Danforth and Eglinton there are't any high volume connecting bus routes. That and the Relief Line not being a significantly faster route for people on the ECLRT can account for the low ridership through that section. We could very well see ridership increase north of Eglinton because of the high volume of passengers that could transfer from surface routes on York Mills, Lawrence, Sheppard (LRT), Finch and the Sheppard Subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well based on the studies released so far such as: http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TTC/DRTES/DRTES_Commission_Presentation.pdf, as well as the poster of the public meeting, I think we can all agree that the following is likely:

Danforth & Pape to King & University/Spadina (approximate locations) is the part that will likely be mandatory. This could possibly be all that is built in phase 1.

There are two more sections that could either be included or the next extensions:
Dundas West & Bloor to King & Spadina AKA Western section
Danforth & Pape to Don Mills & Eglinton AKA North section

Anything beyond that is fantasy until the above is built I think.

I've been assuming that it will be longer than that. Downtown to Pape is only 6km. Metrolinx is apparently planning to build a subway more than twice that length (13 km).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I have always seen the line going over to Jane St and then north on it since Jane can't support a surface ROW until Wilson, but you can try it at Eglinton.

I see the line going over to the Mt. Dennis area... eventually. There wont be too many riders on that section. And I can't see there being subway on Jane. The Spadina Subway is relatively close and nowhere near full capacity. A Jane LRT that connects to a Mt. Dennis terminus of the Relief Line will be more than sufficient for a very long time.

 

[MisterF]

I think he means on the B-D line, but you are so close to your destination at that point that waiting the two stations takes too long, its faster to use Bloor-Yonge even if you have to wait for a train to pass by before getting on the second one. If people don't do it now (which they don't), they will never do it. The DRL on the other hand will provide a faster ride with plenty of space to spare, as it will be a whole lot emptier than the spadina line.

I think the DRL will be busier than you think. Pape might be less busy than St George at first, but even Pape will be very busy. A lot of bus routes come from the north and will feed the station (the new TTC map shows that graphically really well). But once the line gets downtown it will be just as busy as Spadina if not more so. The Metrolinx ridership forecasts bear that out. There's so much pent up demand for mass transit on that corridor that it will be a huge success from day one.

haha nope, just human psychology. People do what is best for them, that simple. Nobody will change their daily commute unless it benefits them, so telling them to switch at St. George is silly, as nobody will do it. Its like telling people to take highway 7 to Ottawa instead of the 401 to reduce congestion, nobody will do it..

as for the DRL, it will have sufficient ridership, just not crush loads a la Yonge or spadina, especially at its first stop where B-D transfers will be getting on. St. George will have 20km of subway feeding into it before it reaches it.

and that was the major criticism of that report, the fact that it considered congestion to only be on the roads, and thus considered "new riders" to be paramount in transit expansion. it completely ignored existing ridership, throwing it at the wayside for getting new riders at all cost. In reality, there absolutely is congestion in transit, and that is Bloor-Yonge. The DRL aims to fix that congestion, that simple. The DRL frees up not only large scale development across downtown, and existing lines as well (especially the Danforth between Pape and Bloor Yonge, but also entire eastern B-D line and the Yonge line).

I too wish people would stop focusing on new riders in determining which projects get built. Existing riders are just as important as new riders, probably more so. Chasing new riders is what had made subways get stretched farther and farther into the suburbs. That approach might generate new revenue but the problem is it costs more money than it brings in. The DRL would allow the TTC to retire at least a couple streetcar lines. Plus it would allow large parts of the system to run more efficiently, from the two existing subway lines to all the buses and streetcars that will feed it. And yes, it would attract new riders. People who walk and cycle downtown would be more inclined to take the subway if it covered more of the central city. And there are still large numbers of people who drive downtown for whom the DRL would be very useful.

We also need to stop thinking of the DRL as simply a tool to relieve Yonge. No subway line is that simple. For most cities, expanding network coverage is just as important, which is why Rome and Prague are building new subways right through their historic hearts. The DRL will do that as well as relieve streetcar and bus routes, improve the efficiency and redundancy of the system, and allow the city to grow without choking on itself. Alternatives to the DRL that try to squeeze more people onto Yonge have none of these benefits.

 

[ehlow]

I've been assuming that it will be longer than that. Downtown to Pape is only 6km. Metrolinx is apparently planning to build a subway more than twice that length (13 km).

If so that's great. I'm just saying that that's likely the part that is the most certain, even that PDF shows that part.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It'll eliminate maybe the 504, nothing else.

It will absolutely relieve those lines however.

 

[ehlow]

I think the DRL will be busier than you think. Pape might be less busy than St George at first, but even Pape will be very busy. A lot of bus routes come from the north and will feed the station (the new TTC map shows that graphically really well). But once the line gets downtown it will be just as busy as Spadina if not more so. The Metrolinx ridership forecasts bear that out. There's so much pent up demand for mass transit on that corridor that it will be a huge success from day one.


I too wish people would stop focusing on new riders in determining which projects get built. Existing riders are just as important as new riders, probably more so. Chasing new riders is what had made subways get stretched farther and farther into the suburbs. That approach might generate new revenue but the problem is it costs more money than it brings in. The DRL would allow the TTC to retire at least a couple streetcar lines. Plus it would allow large parts of the system to run more efficiently, from the two existing subway lines to all the buses and streetcars that will feed it. And yes, it would attract new riders. People who walk and cycle downtown would be more inclined to take the subway if it covered more of the central city. And there are still large numbers of people who drive downtown for whom the DRL would be very useful.

We also need to stop thinking of the DRL as simply a tool to relieve Yonge. No subway line is that simple. For most cities, expanding network coverage is just as important, which is why Rome and Prague are building new subways right through their historic hearts. The DRL will do that as well as relieve streetcar and bus routes, improve the efficiency and redundancy of the system, and allow the city to grow without choking on itself. Alternatives to the DRL that try to squeeze more people onto Yonge have none of these benefits.

Great post. Expanding network coverage and expanding network capacity, both things Toronto needs to do and the DRL does.

The DRL covers such dense neighbourhoods (if Dundas West to Danforth is built), but not just residential density (although it is extremely dense residentially), but also dense in job locations and destinations in general.

Having multiple uses means it will serve both commuters and other daily trips. Meaning that like the Yonge & Bloor lines, it won't just be busy in the morning & afternoon rush hour, but be well used all day.

 

[Adjei]

I see the line going over to the Mt. Dennis area... eventually. There wont be too many riders on that section. And I can't see there being subway on Jane. The Spadina Subway is relatively close and nowhere near full capacity. A Jane LRT that connects to a Mt. Dennis terminus of the Relief Line will be more than sufficient for a very long time.

Yeah that's what I had in mind for the Jane LRT so that it doesnt have to go all the way to Bloor.

 

[Palma]

haha nope, just human psychology. People do what is best for them, that simple. Nobody will change their daily commute unless it benefits them, so telling them to switch at St. George is silly, as nobody will do it. Its like telling people to take highway 7 to Ottawa instead of the 401 to reduce congestion, nobody will do it..

asas well (especially the Danforth between Pape and Bloor Yonge, but also entire eastern B-D line and the Yonge line).

That makes no sense. You are on the Danforth line, avoid Yonge and the crush of people to get to the southbound subway on Yonge and instead get off at St. George. And thats asking for too much? Well then its no surprise those that want the RT converted to subway so passengers can avoid a transfer at Kennedy, Its just as valid a point and more so than people not willing to change their daily commute and go over 2 stops to get off at St. George

 

[Edward]

Can't wait to see what a big mess the King East line is once the PamAm village site is open for permanent residents. Hopefully will spur the DRL. A lot of people will be moving in all at once in just over a year.

 

[ksun]

Maybe a route in between King and Queen to serve both of them perhaps.

The purpose of the DRL shouldn't be just to relieve the Yonge line. 501 and 504 are at capacity during rush hour too and these EW commuters need some relief as well. Wellington is just a bit too far from Queen.
Plus, from a revenue perspective, we don't want the DRL to be just a commute line. It should have sufficient ridership off peak too, and in that aspect, Adelaide (closer to both office and retail) and is a much more balanced route than Wellington.

I don't think it makes good sense to have a DRL stop at/near Union. It is crowded enough as it is.

 

[rbt]

I've been assuming that it will be longer than that. Downtown to Pape is only 6km. Metrolinx is apparently planning to build a subway more than twice that length (13 km).

I'm not sure Metrolinx will receive all of the money they asked for which is already much less than what they really wanted to get ahead of congestion.

GO expansion is a priority for them; one which I agree with. 905 will want half of whatever remains for various LRT/BRT projects and general maintenance. I only expect the shortest useful DRL to be funded in the spring budget.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

At the end of the day, the DRL can be a city build tool as much as a transportation tool. Let's be honest, this line can help rejuvenate neighborhoods. Eglinton/Don Mills, Weston, Queen East, Gerrard Square, Parkdale etc. It's time to stop building as a stop gap and build as much as we can, even if it is over building(which in Toronto's case I don't believe in.) If that means the DRL to sheppard or Finch east(if we find the money) so be it. We need to actually build something to help make the city better, not just move people.

 

[MisterF]

It'll eliminate maybe the 504, nothing else.

It will absolutely relieve those lines however.

It can eliminate both the 504 and 501 if it's located somewhere between the two. I suppose the outer portions of the 501 would still be needed and act as feeder lines to the subway. The two streets are close enough together to make that work, plus construction on Adelaide or Richmond would be a lot less disruptive than King or Queen. With the streetcars gone and a subway running there's the opportunity to do all kinds of interesting things with both streets - widen the sidewalks, do a woonerf type street, do a lot more streetscaping and patio space, even close parts of them to traffic altogether to make pedestrian streets. The rest of the streetcar system would of course still be needed.