Toronto OnePark West | ?m | 13s | Daniels | Core Architects

There are a lot of small things taking place which will drive these people away. Sobeys is a great little example. When higher income retail shops surround the new development which none of the old residents can afford that is another factor pushing them away.
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Those relocated elsewhere to make space for phase 1 are unlikely to return however those that end up shifting from the old to the new are unlikely to move because of a Sobeys (unless you find Tims higher end as well) A. What makes you so confident the Sobeys will be a success? B. Say it is, you are aware an old style, neighbourhood No Frills is a very short 5 minute walk away that ain't going nowhere.

I won't argue
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because you have nothing
 
I think sobey's will be driven out of business. Price Chopper within 5 years of Sobey's opening, imho. (That's if Sobey's isn't merged with Loblaws within 5 years--something I believe will happen.) Sobey's is more expensive because, as the smaller of the two (versus loblaws), they have less buying power. On average, Sobey's brands (including Price Chopper) are 40% more expensive than Loblaws (including No Frills.) The national pultz did a comparison article several months ago.
 
grey said:
Yeah, there's a lot more market priced housing than I was expecting according to that picture. I guess they're performing a balancing act and making sure they've attracted as much middle class to this area as possible in the first phase before building tons of TCHC housing. Maybe the other phases will include more affordable housing?
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One can only hope! I was on a Jane's Walk with John Sewell through Regent Park, and he was pretty pissed about this. What factors went into this decision, though, I don't know. I'd be interested to learn.
 
However, artificial attempts at intervention, by government agencies, do not work in the long run. Regent Park (new) was a "fake" neighbourhood; the old working class Cabbagetown was authentic, just as working class towns across Ontario are the real deal. Creating fake pockets of "diversity" is wrong, and very patronizing towards minority groups.

If it weren't for the TCHC "fake" 'hoods, would there be many poor people left downtown? Probably, but they'd be scattered about so thinly as to barely be visible as "poor."

How do some poor people get to live in RP-style ghettos forever, yet others rent at market rates in High Park, Etobicoke, and beyond? Is it who you know? Some gov't scam policy that says we need 30% more ______ ethnicity here so we better get these spaces filled?

Just curious: I know plenty of poor people--making $20,000 or less--yet they pay market rent, some even own their own home (trailer home;)
 
maestro said:
Those relocated elsewhere to make space for phase 1 are unlikely to return however those that end up shifting from the old to the new are unlikely to move because of a Sobeys (unless you find Tims higher end as well) A. What makes you so confident the Sobeys will be a success? B. Say it is, you are aware an old style, neighbourhood No Frills is a very short 5 minute walk away that ain't going nowhere.



because you have nothing
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Whatever helps you sleep at night. We'll see how many start moving back and how many actually end up staying. All that money isn't being spent to redevelop the whole area so the same crappy people can come back and ruin it all over again.

For some crazy reason people argue that it's due to the neglect and deterioration of the area that it was filled with bad apples. I'd say it's the other way around. The bad apples were the cause of the neglect and deterioration.

I wrote a 20 page paper on this for my final urban development project in university....but hey, I'm probably just making this all up.
 
Read maestro's post above. People currently living in phases of Regent Park not yet down will move here when this first phase is built. So yes most of the same people living in Regent Park now will still be living in Regent Park.
 
I understand that......I'm talking longer term. The combination of a whole bunch of smaller things adding up will drive those residents away.

Sobeys and RBC is a tiny example. Then you have the middle class residents moving into the condo units. Then just outside of Regent Park you have other developers building condos for the middle class. Slowly as that happens you're going to have the commercial spaces gentrified, and in 10 years or so when it's near completion it's going to be a completely different area that prices the previous residents out. It will still be a relatively lower income area (compared to the rest of downtown), but at this point Regent Park is the largest housing project in Canada, and the residents have the lowest socio economic status of urban dwellers in all of Canada. There is no way they will be able to thrive in that area as it becomes gentrified.

There are a lot of sociological factors at play here. The only thing you're looking at is what the TCHC and the city have said. I'd hardly consider that truth.
 
Your logic makes no sense. There is social housing in these buildings. A Sobeys and RBC is not going to change that fact...ever. In fact, the housing will probably force a change at Sobeys (and RBC is just like any other bank. There are a few in the Jane Finch corridor and they serve the community fine).

The retail choices are not some conspiracy by the city and to think so, borders either on ignorance or paranoia.
 
RBC already operates the "Cash and Save" discount Money Mart type operation on Gerrard east of Parliament.

Sobey's will be fine. At least it's competition to the nearby No Frills, and is another source of fresh produce. For local residents, it will still be cheaper than a corner store, as many, if not most Sobey's in the GTA are open 24 hours.
 
I'm not sure where the idea came from that RBC will hurt the neighbourhood. If I'm not mistaken, this is the first -real- bank to enter the area. Residents had to rely on sketchy payday loan operations before.

Edit: beaten, dammit! ^^^
 
alklay said:
Your logic makes no sense. There is social housing in these buildings. A Sobeys and RBC is not going to change that fact...ever. In fact, the housing will probably force a change at Sobeys (and RBC is just like any other bank. There are a few in the Jane Finch corridor and they serve the community fine).

The retail choices are not some conspiracy by the city and to think so, borders either on ignorance or paranoia.
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You obviously didn't read what I wrote. I said the combination of many small things together will begin to push the low income residents out. RBC and Sobeys was one random example because they were in the renders above.

From a sociological stand point, migration (both local and international) occurs due to push and pull factors. There are going to be a lot of push factors for theses people to move. More expensive retail, middle class condos around these low income rentals, stresses of relocation (for the ones that are supposed to move back into the area), etc.

Look at King W. 5 years ago it was affordable. Now you've got 4 start hotels, million dollar condos, and high end retail swarming the area. Not saying the identical scenario will play out in Regent Park, but as it becomes gentrified the previous residents will not be able to afford the area. Simple as that.
 
You obviously did not read what I wrote:

This is social housing. There are no market 'push' factors at work. It will not be affordable one day and unaffordable the next: its affordability will not be determined by the market or anything other environmental factor. Its subsidized social housing. Gentrification, retail stores, surrounding condos...all irrelevant to the cost of the social housing.

(as just an obvious example: the price of apples at the Dominion at the corner of Bathurst and Lawrence, and the condo and housing prices in the neighbourhood, do not in any way effect the price of the subsidized housing in the area (the 'Jungle')).
 
To add to this check out the St Lawrence Market area. The entire strip of Esplande from Yonge to Parliament is a mixture of condos, co-ops and social housing. The surrounding areas are experiencing a major condo boom but this area has not changed. Check out The Esplanade. The new Regent Park should look like it once built.
 
alklay said:
You obviously did not read what I wrote:

This is social housing. There are no market 'push' factors at work. It will not be affordable one day and unaffordable the next: its affordability will not be determined by the market or anything other environmental factor. Its subsidized social housing. Gentrification, retail stores, surrounding condos...all irrelevant to the cost of the social housing.

(as just an obvious example: the price of apples at the Dominion at the corner of Bathurst and Lawrence, and the condo and housing prices in the neighbourhood, do not in any way effect the price of the subsidized housing in the area (the 'Jungle')).
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Housing is one factor amongst many that people think about when determining a place to live. And I never once mentioned the affordability of the housing itself. I meant the affordability of life in general. On top of that the new social dynamic between the lower SES residents and the buying middle class will have implications as well.

Anyway, when it's all said and done we'll see how many end up back there. Until then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
Housing is one factor amongst many that people think about when determining a place to live. And I never once mentioned the affordability of the housing itself. I meant the affordability of life in general. On top of that the new social dynamic between the lower SES residents and the buying middle class will have implications as well.

Anyway, when it's all said and done we'll see how many end up back there. Until then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Considering that affordable, rent-geared-to-income (RGI) housing caps rent at 1/3 of family income, and such an advantage this offers in comparison to private rental, which is likely going to eat up a significant portion of one's rent regardless of geographical location, it's pretty clear where one would prefer to live (and that's not even counting the cost of transportation - both monetary and time).

There are other areas of the city (e.g. Riverdale, or the inner core in general) that is experiencing significant gentrification and yet inner city RGI housing in these areas remains popular. The added cost of living only occurs when you shop exclusively at high-end stores - it assumes that no other alternative is available within a short distance, which isn't true for most areas.

AoD
 
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