Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

The project is about transformation of the street (and at this stage, visioning), so I don't see why you'd need images of exactly Dundas at Hurontario with a BRT or LRT plopped into it. I think the examples from different cities show the idea for each neighbourhood - i.e. Mississauga and Brampton don't always have to be the way they are now, why not dream of them as Strasbourg or Portland?

It's better to show a vision of what it will probably look like where it is proposed, not someone's dream in walkable old European cities which have little to do with Mississauga present or future. It's better to present a project as accurately as possible to people who may be encountering LRT for the first time. Some of the photos show streetcars in mixed traffic, which isn't even what's proposed.
 
You could very easily build an underground walkway to Square One like the PATH.

Yes, but why would you do it in the first place? Why force people underground Aren't the streets lacking pedestrians in the first place? Why force people to walk 3-4 times the distance to Square One? Why take away the connection to the Transitway? There are no reasons.

It would not be difficult for buses to access at all. No more difficult than the current setup.

You seriously think a terminal right at a busy, congested, major intersection between such wide roads as Hurontario and Burnhamthorpe would be just as easy for buses to access as the current one on Rathburn???
 
Yes, but why would you do it in the first place? Why force people underground Aren't the streets lacking pedestrians in the first place? Why force people to walk 3-4 times the distance to Square One? Why take away the connection to the Transitway? There are no reasons.



You seriously think a terminal right at a busy, congested, major intersection between such wide roads as Hurontario and Burnhamthorpe would be just as easy for buses to access as the current one on Rathburn???

People seem to have no problem walking from Yorkdale's subway stop to the mall. You make it sound like it would be so far. It would take about 2 minutes to walk to the front entrance of Square One from that location.

As for that intersection being busy... all of the buses going into Square One have to get by busy intersections all day long, so I fail to see the difference.
Also bus only lanes could be made to make it easier for buses to get into and out of a station at this location.
 
People seem to have no problem walking from Yorkdale's subway stop to the mall. You make it sound like it would be so far. It would take about 2 minutes to walk to the front entrance of Square One from that location.

Look at map, measure the distances. Are they the same? I didn't think so.

As for that intersection being busy... all of the buses going into Square One have to get by busy intersections all day long, so I fail to see the difference.

Going through a busy intersection is a whole lot different than trying to enter any driveway at a busy intersection. I can't believe you are arguing this. The city has already banned drive-throughs at major intersections for the exact same reason.

You have still not provided any justification for moving the terminal in the first place.
 
I agree with both arguments. Speed through Sq.1 should be made as smooth as possible, but at the same time I hear about the future importance of Duke of York - yes, it's got a great future ahead of it with a little smart planning. If enough balances, investments, political will, and sacrifices can be made, I can see a design solution for having LRT service go by Duke of York.

It would only really work if the political will exists to abandon both the GO and MT existing terminals, and I am doubtful that such a will exists, but if a new joint-terminal is built at Princess Royal Dr. and Duke of York, on the east side of Duke of York and spanning both sides of Princess Royal Dr., and on two levels, it could provide of good design solution.

The LRT could duck very breifly underground on Hurontario south of Elia to cross the southbound Hurontario traffic lanes, come out alongside the south edge of the westbound 403 onramp from southbound Hurontario, continue ascending, up over the 403, and then descend into the grassy space between City Centre Dr. and 403 (this would be a prime spot for turfed-track), and then ascend the LRT again as Duke of York approaches while City Centre Dr. road traffic lanes descend, and the two LRT tracks could then spread out and descend onto Duke of York at the far lanes closest to the sidewalks. Road access to the commercial properties from Duke of York between Rathburn and City Centre Dr. need to be re-located to a point further south and with some turning restrictions.

Service an LRT stop at Rathburn, and from Rathburn southward allow bus traffic to share the dedicated lanes with the LRT. Re-locate the Sq.1 parking access road between Prince of Wales and Rathburn to use the space freed up by the existing terminal at the end of the project. Grade-separate Prince of Whales from Duke of York (except the sidewalks, where present), with Prince of Wales going underneath Duke of York.

Now here's where it starts to get funky, it's a little hard to follow but use your imagination: Take the southbound/west-side Duke of York track (closest to City Hall) underground through a portal spanning between Prince of Wales and Princess Royal. Service the transit terminal by LRT at the south side of Princess Royal beneath Duke of York (passengers detrain on the east side of the southbound LRV). Meanwhile, the northbound/east-side Duke of York track (closest to Sq.1) stays at-grade, but at the Burnhamthorpe/Duke of York T-intersection, grade-separate the westbound Burnhamthorpe lanes only (except the inner-most/south-most lane for the LRT and bus traffic), and the northbound Duke of York lanes (except the out-most/east-most lane for the LRT) to allow right-turns onto Duke of York by cars coming from the east (travelling west) along Burnhamthorpe. Swiggle the Burnhamthorpe automobile lanes one lane-width south while passing beneath the LRT track and left-turning surface to/from Duke of York/Burnhamthorpe (eastbound lanes) to allow space for a lane to turn right onto Burnhamthorpe from Duke of York (enabling a south-to-west turn) by having the outer-most/north-most lane on Burnhamthorpe west of Duke of York be non-grade-separated, bringing the other lanes back up about midway between Duke of York and Living Arts Dr.

The northound LRT stop services the new transit terminal at-grade, while the cross-track traffic from the southbound stop is grade-separated and prevents pedestrian traffic from interfering with LRT service, and allowing grade-separated left-turns for buses bound for the new terminal. The LRT stop is in the most strictly technical sense "outside" the terminal proper, but with sheltered access directly to it immediately beside it acting as an "extension" of the terminal proper.

The southbound/west-most LRT track stays underground until it has turned south-to-east onto Burnhamthorpe, immediately after which it rises. After serving a stop at Kaliya Dr. on Burnhamthorpe, it would descend again to make a grade-separated turn back onto Hurontario. It would serve an underground stop immediately after the turn and then rise to the surface by Elm Dr.

This should provide very smooth service through the area with negligible time impacts as the right-of-way dodges many traffic signals and is a mix of exclusive and semi-exclusive. It serves Sq.1 and MCC proper equally, and keeps an acceptable service design for the Transitway with the new grade-separations on Duke of York plus dedicated lanes shared between bus and LRT.
 
Look at map, measure the distances. Are they the same? I didn't think so.



Going through a busy intersection is a whole lot different than trying to enter any driveway at a busy intersection. I can't believe you are arguing this. The city has already banned drive-throughs at major intersections for the exact same reason.

You have still not provided any justification for moving the terminal in the first place.

The difference would be about 75 metres, if a tunnel were built underground from the north end of what is currently the parking lot, in a straight line to the entrance of square one.
I'm not sure why you're having such a huge issue with something that is simply just an idea. Ideas are positive and good things, and you seem to have a problem with ideas for some reason.
 
Re: Yorkdale. Keep in mind that Yorkdale's subway-mall connection doesn't just include a +15 over to the mall, it includes a mall extension closer to the subway...if the same is done between Hurontario and Square One, you can 'trick' people into connecting to transit via quite a long walk by having them walk inside the mall, which they won't mind as much as they would a long tunnel.
 
Re: Yorkdale. Keep in mind that Yorkdale's subway-mall connection doesn't just include a +15 over to the mall, it includes a mall extension closer to the subway...if the same is done between Hurontario and Square One, you can 'trick' people into connecting to transit via quite a long walk by having them walk inside the mall, which they won't mind as much as they would a long tunnel.

It doesn't have to be mall either. It could be offices or a university campus like has been talked about.
 
The entrance also doesn't have to be on Hurontario or Burnhamthorpe. An entrance for buses could come in from City Centre Dr.
 
May I ask why there is such strong opposition to diverting the line off Huronatrio to offer direct connections to Square One mall, Mississauga City Hall/Living Arts Centre and the existing Transit Terminal? Talk about missing major trip generators a stone's throw away, not to mention being central to several condominiums/office buildings en route. For many bus routes north of the 403, losing that location would also be detrimental and add-on time to commutes.
 
May I ask why there is such strong opposition to diverting the line off Huronatrio to offer direct connections to Square One mall, Mississauga City Hall/Living Arts Centre and the existing Transit Terminal? Talk about missing major trip generators a stone's throw away, not to mention being central to several condominiums/office buildings en route. For many bus routes north of the 403, losing that location would also be detrimental and add-on time to commutes.

I get the sense that

a) People feel that there is strong demand for a fast north-south trip through the area, and feel that diverting to the terminal would work against fulfilling that demand.

and b) people feel that the terminal's location does not adequately serve all the trip generators in the area and should be relocated to better serve the area.

In my view, the transitway is getting built so the terminal isn't going anywhere. That leaves us to decide if there is greater demand for a quick trip though the area, or if there is greater demand for connecting to the terminal.
 
I'm not necessarily against diverting towards the terminal (though the terminal should continue to migrate east, the location is not suitable), but not to go all they way over to Duke of York just to serve the city hall. That seems to be Amphibius' big idea. There's a few good reasons why the 202 does not enter CCTT.

The terminal location was a mistake. It should have gone farther east - perhaps where the mini-big boxes are now next to Hurontario, or at Burnhamthorpe and Kariya Gate (though it wouldn't be close to the Transitway), or even between Rathburn and the Sears store at the lights there. Station Gate Drive isn't all that permanent - just a couple of shelters and bus bays - perhaps around the corner of City Centre/City Gate and Rathburn would be the best for transit connections.

Brampton learned its lesson and will likely move its Shoppers World terminal back to Main Street and meet the LRT there. It is planning a second mini-terminal for the Bramalea City Centre area to be built at Central Park Drive and Queen (the police station that is moving across the street) to directly connect to the Acceleride corridor (rather than divert the BRT-lite service down to Clark) and allow connections to many of the buses that already serve BCC.
 
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a picture is worth 1000 words

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It seems worth it to get this line closer to all those people... there must be at least 10-15,000 planned in the confederation park area. Right now it's about 1.25-1.5 KM away... I have read studies that say that within half a mile is ideal walking distance for rail. I don't think a significant diversion is needed, just something just far enough that walking is better than transit (i.e. not worth it to take the bus one stop), and more destinations are better served at the same time.
 
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If you want to serve all those condos, perhaps Mississauga should also install a Portland Streetcar-type circulator (half-kidding) or a Burnhamthope LRT. Is the LRT not supposed to be "higher order transit" or is it a local transit line that will merely swing up to 2 kilometres out of its way to provide local service? Should a DRL serve both Chinatown and City Place, Regent Park and the Distillery to capture every possible rider too?

I like the idea of tunnelling the LRT to veer further west into MCC from south of Burnhamthorpe and back via the Hydro corridor and surfacing just north of Eglinton to avoid those traffic jams and have a smooth, painless diversion to better serve the CCTT current location and areas to the west. That would be very expensive, but Edmonton did it through its downtown and again through the university. So did Pittsburgh in the 1980s, and Boston back in 1897. Though a surface diversion all the way over there would defeat much of the purpose of the LRT.
 
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City centre transit loop

In my opinion, the City Centre Transit Terminal is located in exactly the right location and there is no need to move it. The connection to Square One is absolutely essential as it is clearly the largest destination in the area. It is located in a strategic connection with a direct connection with the future Transitway, and in the longer term will be located in heart of the business - commercial district.

The surrounding Square One parking lots are to be transformed into a lifestyle centre, similar to the model of the new Don Mills Centre. North of Rathburn will be a solid row of high density office towers, finally just one block west at Duke of York, south of Rathburn will be the planned new hotel, convention centre and residential complex.

There has also been a long term proposal to build an underground transit terminal beneath Rathburn Road to connect with the Transit Terminals above to provide a seamless transfer and to expand capacity.

As for the plan to divert LRT into the heart of the City Centre, I would like to see it buried under Rathburn, and have it diverted even further to Confederation Parkway, or as a compromise Living Arts Drive to really capture the new residential zone rising. This will also capture riders from the “Rogers Lands” which is equal to the size of the Amacon lands, located at Confederation Parkway, south of Burnhamthrope Road.

There is nothing stopping Mississauga from providing an express LRT route bypassing the City Centre continuing a route down Hurontario, just as it does with the Route 202 today. Simply put, every other train could either be labeled CITY CENTRE that will make the loop in or bypass the loop for PORT CREDIT directly.

I would really like to see this plan rolled out sooner rather later. I'm totally opposed to building a BRT line along Hurontario as current ridership levels could already support an LRT line. I wouldn't mind seeing this open in three phases: 1 Port Credit - City Centre loop, 2 City Centre to 407 Transitway, 3 Transitway to Downtown Brampton.

Louroz
 
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