Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[ShonTron]

I have ridden the L several times and wouldn't kid myself by saying the TTC's system (I assume you mean subway only) is better than the L. TTC subway is more frequent on less trackage and I notice that L seems to primarily be a way of transporting the poor and suffering, while most of those with money don't consider it as a serious option. I've seen bad things on the TTC subway, but nothing like what goes on on the L.

Besides that, the L provides better coverage and has stations at 2 airports, has express and local sections, and blue/red lines run 24 hours/day. As far as I can tell, the TTC subway, which again is a nicer riding experience, has trouble staying open more than 5 days/week, nevermind 24 hours/day.

I would still pick coverage and 24 hour service as the winner though.

No. The L is well used by middle class and some wealthier commuters, like the subways in New York and Washington and even LA. It's true that the system goes through some very rough areas on the South and West Sides, but it is hardly "a way of transporting the poor and suffering." That's ridiculous.

Yes, the Loop can be very slow, especially during rush hours as track junctions are not grade separated, but that's why Chicago built two subways in its downtown core in the 1940s and 1950s and rerouted several of its services into those tunnels. As for the at-grade sections of the Pink, Purple, and Brown Lines, there at at the ends of those lines and offer complete train priority. They're railway crossings, and just an interesting exception to the rule for urban heavy-rail metro transit systems.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Is this discussion on-topic?

 

[felix123]

I've always wondered why on the subway and in the future Crosstown LRT that they close the entire line for 6-8 hours a night. Only a small portion of a line would be under maintenance on any given night. Why not use shuttles for that small portion of the line and continue to use trains on the remainder?

Or make like the Copenhagen Metro and do trackwork every night, but on a single, alternating track. They reduce service frequency to every 30 minutes during maintenance time, and use only one track to serve both directions.

 

[rbt]

Or make like the Copenhagen Metro and do trackwork every night, but on a single, alternating track. They reduce service frequency to every 30 minutes during maintenance time, and use only one track to serve both directions.

The new signalling system will allow for this type of thing (with 10 to 15 minute frequencies for bi-directional travel) but it requires rewiring a fair amount of the electrical feed which is currently shared between both tracks. Work on switches would likely still require both sides to be shut-down.

Much more practical is to alternate lines. Yonge OR Spadina, Bloor OR Eglinton.

 

[felix123]

The new signalling system will allow for this type of thing (with 10 to 15 minute frequencies for bi-directional travel) but it requires rewiring a fair amount of the electrical feed which is currently shared between both tracks. Work on switches would likely still require both sides to be shut-down.

Much more practical is to alternate lines. Yonge OR Spadina, Bloor OR Eglinton.

That's an interesting piece of information. I think the TTC is somewhat set in its ways, so even if it's entirely feasible, they may not provide 24 hour subway/crosstown service. The blue night streetcars give me hope though.

As for the idea to keep alternate lines open, my opinion is that those lines are just too far apart past the loop to stand in for one another while the other line is closed. We already use blue night where available - must we always use the subway as a feeder system, requiring a transfer to a bus? I don't think many passengers want an infrequent transfer at 3:30am. Personally, I don't mind the extra walk to the subway and rarely bother with my street's bus route.

 

[micheal_can]

Could it also be that the Copenhagen Metro opened in 2002? Their nightly maintenance may not be as intensive as Toronto's are.

 

[felix123]

Could it also be that the Copenhagen Metro opened in 2002? Their nightly maintenance may not be as intensive as Toronto's are.

Subway, possibly. Crosstown, obviously not. Perhaps by devoting the entire operations team to one subway track, enough work can be completed to last 2 nights instead of 1.

 

[micheal_can]

Subway, possibly. Crosstown, obviously not. Perhaps by devoting the entire operations team to one subway track, enough work can be completed to last 2 nights instead of 1.

That assumes that the work can only be done to one track at a time.

 

[Translude15]

I have ridden the L several times and wouldn't kid myself by saying the TTC's system (I assume you mean subway only) is better than the L. TTC subway is more frequent on less trackage and I notice that L seems to primarily be a way of transporting the poor and suffering, while most of those with money don't consider it as a serious option. I've seen bad things on the TTC subway, but nothing like what goes on on the L.

Besides that, the L provides better coverage and has stations at 2 airports, has express and local sections, and blue/red lines run 24 hours/day. As far as I can tell, the TTC subway, which again is a nicer riding experience, has trouble staying open more than 5 days/week, nevermind 24 hours/day.

I would still pick coverage and 24 hour service as the winner though.

The L may have a more extensive network but isn't as efficient as it could be. All L-related travel is routed through the Loop/Downtown as opposed to having proper crosstown links within the system. The only exception is the Red Line which more or less traverses the entirety of Chicago's lakefront area but even that takes a somewhat circuitous route through downtown. Most transfer stations are pretty impractical as well except for those within the actual Loop.

The TTC may not have as extensive a network but Bloor-Danforth and the eventual Eglinton Crosstown do more in terms of promoting E-W travel patterns within Toronto. Where Chicago absolutely has us beat is their Metra rail commuter service which is far larger than GO and serves many more passengers.

 

[robmausser]

The L may have a more extensive network but isn't as efficient as it could be. All L-related travel is routed through the Loop/Downtown as opposed to having proper crosstown links within the system. The only exception is the Red Line which more or less traverses the entirety of Chicago's lakefront area but even that takes a somewhat circuitous route through downtown. Most transfer stations are pretty impractical as well except for those within the actual Loop.

The TTC may not have as extensive a network but Bloor-Danforth and the eventual Eglinton Crosstown do more in terms of promoting E-W travel patterns within Toronto. Where Chicago absolutely has us beat is their Metra rail commuter service which is far larger than GO and serves many more passengers.

Metra again, beats GO in size, but their trains are ancient, falling apart, and slow. Almost every line is shared with freight.

The service again, is not as good. There have been a ton of derailments and even deaths due to shoddy maintenance and terrible practices at Metra.

It is not a system anyone should try to emulate.

 

[torontocolin]

I've always wondered why on the subway and in the future Crosstown LRT that they close the entire line for 6-8 hours a night. Only a small portion of a line would be under maintenance on any given night. Why not use shuttles for that small portion of the line and continue to use trains on the remainder?

A few reasons:

1. They need to get work cars from the yards to and from wherever they're working, and having the line clear helps speed that up
2. They may not know way in advance where the work will be needed each night, and that's a lot of logistical work to organize on short notice
3. At night, the higher capacity of the trains isn't needed, and the streets are far less busy so the grade separation is less important. Meanwhile, forcing customers to wait 20 minutes for a train or forcing them to transfer twice (train to shuttle bus to train) is often going to end up a worse experience than simply having shuttle buses the entire route.

We'll see what options are opened by the new signal system, but at the moment I think the TTC would be far better off investing in improving blue night service (improving frequencies, maintaining headways, and communicating issues all spring to mind) than running partial train service.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Metra isn't that much larger than GO. I don't believe Metrolinx has released its 2017 ridership numbers, but I expect it to be around 70 million passengers. Metra was 78 million in 2017. Mind you historically Metra has been far larger, but its ridership is in decline while GO has seen some rather extreme growth in the last decade.

I wouldn't be surprised if GO overtakes Metra in the next 2-3 years.

 

[felix123]

Metra again, beats GO in size, but their trains are ancient, falling apart, and slow. Almost every line is shared with freight.

The service again, is not as good. There have been a ton of derailments and even deaths due to shoddy maintenance and terrible practices at Metra.

It is not a system anyone should try to emulate.

Again, I have to disagree. Not knocking on the strides that GO has certainly been making from its recent role as mostly peak-hour, peak-direction commuter service, but Metra is again, so much larger, with so many more stations (242 Metra vs 66 GO) and already has an electrified line with 3 branches. Metra has also long offered some form of 2WAD, similar to Montreal's Deux-Montagnes line in frequency, across several of its lines for many years.

While I don't think GO should aspire to be Metra - it should instead focus on leapfrogging commuter rail service and fully commit to extensive RER upgrades - it is sorely lacking in number of stations, and will still be lacking long after the handful of infill stations are completed around 2025 (hopefully!)

I looked at the wiki for rolling stock - there's a mix of old and fairly new, and of course, EMUs! Also, high platforms in part of the network.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metra#Metra_electric_fleet

 

[Streety McCarface]

Metra isn't that much larger than GO. I don't believe Metrolinx has released its 2017 ridership numbers, but I expect it to be around 70 million passengers. Metra was 78 million in 2017. Mind you historically Metra has been far larger, but its ridership is in decline while GO has seen some rather extreme growth in the last decade.

I wouldn't be surprised if GO overtakes Metra in the next 2-3 years.

We're only considering the Train system, not the GO bus system which makes up about 24% of the ridership.

 

[pman]

It’s fascinating to learn many facts about Chicago’s transit system and how it compares to GO, but I’m struggling to find the connection to the Crosstown LRT.