Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Midtown Urbanist]

UTSC to Pearson is a long line. I hope they know how to handle this.

Me too. With the at-grade portions, I worry the Crosstown can come into the typical streetcar issue of bunching on a bad day.

Thankfully, the Crosstown will be short-turning trains at Laird (which should IMO be Don Mills instead, but oh well), so the tunneled portion shouldn't see greater than 6 minute frequencies ever. (Excepting a delay in the tunnelled portion)

 

[Rainforest]

When we have three groups of professionals evaluating a problem and coming to identical conclusions, I'm inclined to believe them.

Furthermore we know from other cities that airport rapid transit systems are amongst the most seldom used components of a rapid transit system. Airports aren't good at generating ridership.

Bus #192 from Kipling has a decent ridership. Of course, LRT trains have much more capacity than a bus, but you don't have to run all ECLRT trains into the airport. Every second train can short-turn at Kipling or another suitable location.

 

[Rainforest]

I do lots of that... If I am lightly loaded, I take the 192. Heathrow to Russell Square by tube with a full-size suitcase is also doable, but takes work. When I am overseas I pick hotels that are anywhere up to a km from transit, assuming I can trundle the last mile on foot (Rolling suitcases on European cobblestones is hell after a few blocks, I would add).

However - in Toronto, if you live on a residential street that is two blocks from the bus stop that takes you to Line 2 that takes you to Kipling, it's another story. Especially in January. Even with a small carryon suitcase. That's me. Stairs, puddles, slush, salt, curbs, squeezing on crowded buses - yes, it's cumulatively unappealing.

LRT will attract a certain number of air travellers, but the number has to be discounted because not everyone lives within a short walk from the LRT.

- Paul

I live in the Steeles & Dufferin area, relatively far from Eglinton. And yet, ECLRT will be my best public-transit option to reach the airport if the line actually goes there. I would take a cab to Downsview subway station, then subway down to Eglinton, and then ECLRT to the airport.

At present, my best option that involves public transit is a cab to either Yorkdale or Richmond Hill Centre, and a GO bus from there. But the GO service to the airport is very infrequent, typically one bus per hour.

The list of air travellers who can use ECLRT to get to the airport is not limited to those who live near an LRT stop. N-S buses, or an E-W bus plus Spadina subway, or even a short cab ride can be used to get to the LRT before taking it to the airport.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Steelers dufferin and you would take a cab to Shepard west? Just take a bus to pioneer village station, its only 1km or so down the road.

 

[Rainforest]

Steelers dufferin and you would take a cab to Shepard west? Just take a bus to pioneer village station, its only 1km or so down the road.

Actually, it will be about same distance from me as Sheppard West (Downsview). 4 km to Sheppard West, or 3.5 km to Pioneer Village.

But a Steeles bus stop is closer to me than a Dufferin stop, so if I don't have much luggage and want to take a bus, then Pioneer Village is a better option indeed.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Me too. With the at-grade portions, I worry the Crosstown can come into the typical streetcar issue of bunching on a bad day.

Thankfully, the Crosstown will be short-turning trains at Laird (which should IMO be Don Mills instead, but oh well), so the tunneled portion shouldn't see greater than 6 minute frequencies ever. (Excepting a delay in the tunnelled portion)

They can't do don mills Imo, the Leslie station and brentciffle ruined that. I think the Lrts will be better then streetcars but I still feel this should have been a subway.

 

[Steve X]

They can't do don mills Imo, the Leslie station and brentciffle ruined that. I think the Lrts will be better then streetcars but I still feel this should have been a subway.

About that tunnel portion and it's signal system. The Crosslinx consortium has chosen Bombardier to install it's Cityflo 650 CBTC system to maintain headways. So it would be like a subway where they can't bunch up together in the subway. The surface portion would be another story. The LRT line needs to be able to have preemptive signals to keep the line flowing. It will be better to run 3-car trains with wider headway than 2-car trains. I don't know if it's possible to decouple a car at Mt Dennis to shorten the train in the late evenings.

That said, all LRVs bought for the Eglinton line would need Bombardier equipment to operate in the tunnel. If Metrolinx does cancel the contract, Siemens and Alstom would still need to source the ATO equipment from BBD. They will still profit from this.

Bus #192 from Kipling has a decent ridership. Of course, LRT trains have much more capacity than a bus, but you don't have to run all ECLRT trains into the airport. Every second train can short-turn at Kipling or another suitable location.

The more suitable location is Martin Grove. A crossover is planned there in the original plans. This would be like rush hour and late evenings only. Ridership from the Renforth Gateway could increase with more Mississauga riders transferring at Eglinton West oppose to going to Kipling if they find it more convenient. It may be more suitable to short turn trains there.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

A

That said, all LRVs bought for the Eglinton line would need Bombardier equipment to operate in the tunnel. If Metrolinx does cancel the contract, Siemens and Alstom would still need to source the ATO equipment from BBD. They will still profit from this.

I wonder if that will be an issue if either decide to bid. It's almost saying you want a coke freestyle machine to serve pepsi.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

About that tunnel portion and it's signal system. The Crosslinx consortium has chosen Bombardier to install it's Cityflo 650 CBTC system to maintain headways. So it would be like a subway where they can't bunch up together in the subway. The surface portion would be another story. The LRT line needs to be able to have preemptive signals to keep the line flowing. It will be better to run 3-car trains with wider headway than 2-car trains. I don't know if it's possible to decouple a car at Mt Dennis to shorten the train in the late evenings.

That said, all LRVs bought for the Eglinton line would need Bombardier equipment to operate in the tunnel. If Metrolinx does cancel the contract, Siemens and Alstom would still need to source the ATO equipment from BBD. They will still profit from this.


The more suitable location is Martin Grove. A crossover is planned there in the original plans. This would be like rush hour and late evenings only. Ridership from the Renforth Gateway could increase with more Mississauga riders transferring at Eglinton West oppose to going to Kipling if they find it more convenient. It may be more suitable to short turn trains there.

Thanks for the info. So basically we can prevent bunching but only in the tunnels.

 

[Steve X]

Thanks for the info. So basically we can prevent bunching but only in the tunnels.

I wish Metrolinx would reveal more on how transit priority would be implemented on the surface section. So far, not much is reveal on the surface section. I sense it will end up in disaster.

Bunching still happens on the subway. Just not the same way we see buses and streetcars. Even without any delays, heavy loading still causes bunching as trains dwell longer than scheduled. They just don't end up together but closer behind with a long backlog of trains into the terminal stations.

 

[ssiguy2]

Has ML done any studies in determining the difference in price between it at-grade system with lots of stops to an elevated one with fewer between DM & Kennedy?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So it would be like a subway where they can't bunch up together in the subway.

Bunching happens all the time in the subway. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. When trains stop or crawl in the tunnel, it's not because the driver gets a kick out of making everyone wait.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Bunching happens all the time in the subway. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. When trains stop or crawl in the tunnel, it's not because the driver gets a kick out of making everyone wait.

To elaborate, bunching generally isn't caused by street traffic.

The primary cause of bunching is randomly heavy passenger loads on a vehicle. From Wikipedia: "Clumping can be caused by random heavy usage of any particular vehicle, resulting in it falling behind schedule."

 

[Amare]

Bunching happens all the time in the subway. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. When trains stop or crawl in the tunnel, it's not because the driver gets a kick out of making everyone wait.

Or in the TTC's case, a large part of the issue can also be attributed to a consistent bombardment of delays for various reasons. LRT will be no different when it comes to that.

 

[BurlOak]

Has ML done any studies in determining the difference in price between it at-grade system with lots of stops to an elevated one with fewer between DM & Kennedy?

That is exactly what should have been done if ML wanted to find a solution to the transit problem. Of course they have not studied it, or at least not released such a study.