Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[NoahB]

Absolutely. The full space we have to work with is about 150m. Plenty of room.

You could have a train built out of 2 Alstom Citadis Spirit 5 module 59m cars (these are even bigger than the Ottawa ones) and a middle 3 module 30m car. For a total length of 150m and a passenger crush load capacity of 930 people. Almost 1000 people per train.

Or, Alstom could be spec'd to simply build a special 13 module car. But that would require special design and a new maintenance and storage facility. I think 930 people per train is good enough haha.

The new elevated/tunneled replacement would be built to the same length of course.

The planning documents state that 90m is the "ultimate" platform length. This probably means that the platforms cant be lengthed to the station box's limits because you would need to demolish important station service rooms.
I don't have enough details to know for sure. (and I'm certainly not an engineer)

 

[superelevation]

I can totally see Metrolinx elevating the line over Leslie Street in the next 4-7 years to provide more reliable service to Science Centre, and to the Ontario Line connection. It's relatively simple, because it would be a short 300m bridge structure, then the rest would be a separated guideway to Don Mills similar to the one built at Black Creek. It would be a relatively simple and effective solution to providing reliable service. The stop at Leslie (Sunnybrook Park) should be removed to be as cost-effective as possible..
View attachment 291887

But elevating the entire line in Scarborough, It might be a while (2040), or might not even happen at all. It's simply more time, money and construction. But it should happen... eventually.

This is not a good solution, sure it would achieve grade separation and allow cars to easily cross Eglinton but for *way* less money you could just turn Leslie into a RIRO and have people U turn.

As much as I would love it for the line to be converted to light metro, I don't find it practical for a long time. The Crosstown will have to be near capacity (at least 30yrs from now), the gov's money overflowing (very rare), and a premier will have to be convinced that shutting down the line for two years is worth it. Otherwise, it will be impossible to get to the point where there will be any chance to upgrade the line.

Even the Ontario Line will provide 'relief' for the Crosstown when it eventually opens.

If the Canada Line can generate more than 50% of the Crosstown's capacity worth of demand in about 10 years I wouldn't be so confident. Crosstown will connect to a bigger airport, connects to far more heavily use transit routes, and has a LOT more existing density than the Canada Line (and there is a TON planned in the East).

From earlier in this thread, see link...

View attachment 291975
From PDF at this link.

Just because its long doesn't mean extending the platform is easy. Where are you going to move those services (could be a TPSS etc.)?

 

[NoahB]

If the Canada Line can generate more than 50% of the Crosstown's capacity worth of demand in about 10 years I wouldn't be so confident. Crosstown will connect to a bigger airport, connects to far more heavily use transit routes, and has a LOT more existing density than the Canada Line (and there is a TON planned in the East).

I know what you mean about transit outperforming expectations. But I don't think it's an apples to apples comparison.

The Canada Line is the only north-south rapid transit connection route, is the only rapid transit to YVR from day one and still is, and Vancouver has a policy of mandatory high-density rezoning around stations with an emphasis on TOD.

The Crosstown is competing (kind of) with the Bloor Line for east-west trips as well as UPE for downtown airport trips, and Toronto resists every zoning application going through the many yellow-belt 'stable' neighbourhoods it runs through. There's also the fact that the airport extension is not yet planned, only an extension to Renforth is planned to open by the early 2030s.

Toronto is way behind in creating TODs along transit lines. Hopefully, that will change with the forced zoning reforms implemented a few years ago.

 

[Reecemartin]

Heres my big Eglinton Construction update to ring in the new year! Enjoy!

 

[allengeorge]

Toronto is way behind in creating TODs along transit lines. Hopefully, that will change with the forced zoning reforms implemented a few years ago.

I had high hopes, but Toronto Planning is attempting to ask for exceptions along the Bloor line.

A transit-oriented redesign of Toronto: filling space for the city’s next million people

City planners will look at each station area, then report to the province by 2022 about how their local plans fit the province’s Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe

www.theglobeandmail.com

Here’s the source document:

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2020/ph/bgrd/backgroundfile-147670.pdf

Finally, my (cynical) take on the mass heritage-ing along Bloor is that it supports the density exceptions that Toronto Planning wants along Bloor and does an end-run around the ministerial objective.

 

[MrGoose]

I know what you mean about transit outperforming expectations. But I don't think it's an apples to apples comparison.

The Canada Line is the only north-south rapid transit connection route, is the only rapid transit to YVR from day one and still is, and Vancouver has a policy of mandatory high-density rezoning around stations with an emphasis on TOD.

The Crosstown is competing (kind of) with the Bloor Line for east-west trips as well as UPE for downtown airport trips, and Toronto resists every zoning application going through the many yellow-belt 'stable' neighbourhoods it runs through. There's also the fact that the airport extension is not yet planned, only an extension to Renforth is planned to open by the early 2030s.

Toronto is way behind in creating TODs along transit lines. Hopefully, that will change with the forced zoning reforms implemented a few years ago.

This line is under built and we will see it the moment the line opens. By the time the Golden Mile development opens up, the close stop spacing and on street nature of the eastern portion will make it painfully clear that more capacity is needed and it had to be grade separated.

There isn’t another good crosstown route between Bloor and York Mills and the city and province botched this one up.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This line is under built and we will see it the moment the line opens. By the time the Golden Mile development opens up, the close stop spacing and on street nature of the eastern portion will make it painfully clear that more capacity is needed and it had to be grade separated.

There isn’t another good crosstown route between Bloor and York Mills and the city and province botched this one up.

The Ontario Line will effectively relieve any capacity constraints along the eastern portion of the line. There isn't a chance this thing will exceed 15,000 pphpd between Kennedy and Don MIlls.

 

[crs1026]

I had high hopes, but Toronto Planning is attempting to ask for exceptions along the Bloor line.

A transit-oriented redesign of Toronto: filling space for the city’s next million people

City planners will look at each station area, then report to the province by 2022 about how their local plans fit the province’s Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe

www.theglobeandmail.com

Here’s the source document:

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2020/ph/bgrd/backgroundfile-147670.pdf

Finally, my (cynical) take on the mass heritage-ing along Bloor is that it supports the density exceptions that Toronto Planning wants along Bloor and does an end-run around the ministerial objective.

There are two separate streams crossing here. One is the tension between those who want high rise and those who want lower rise. The other is the desire to protect existing district character, as opposed to existing buildings.

The heritage push is certainly aimed at putting the heritage discussion in the right place in the development approvals process,, given that the process has been streamlined by QP with tighter timelines. But the focus on listing (as opposed to designating, a big difference) entire “main street” districts ensures that areas with a certain character aren’t overrun by new development without first declaring the prevailing context of that district, and testing development against that. The benefit may not be retention of old bricks and mortar as much as retaining districts that are cohesive and relevant in their current form.

The collision is because transit generally is being built along such “main street” corridors.

Personally, I would argue that the now-ubiquitous base-podium-with-tower-above mentality is producing few districts with character, and few walkable streets, and less opportunity to site small businesses and new entrepreneurs. We really need to give the Avenues approach -6-8 storey buildings that are dense but built to conserve the streetscape - a chance.

Just watch how Eglinton changes as Crosstown comes on line. There isn’t a hope that some of its communities will be able to afford the rent as that density arrives. Danforth has the same risk if redevelopment is badly handled.

I absolutely agree that density has to rise around transit. That may not mean putting towers everywhere, however.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think we should take a look at restricting the sizes of these ground level retail units. The only companies that can afford these massive units are the big banks, Shoppers drug mart, Starbucks, etc...

 

[allengeorge]

Personally, I would argue that the now-ubiquitous base-podium-with-tower-above mentality is producing few districts with character, and few walkable streets, and less opportunity to site small businesses and new entrepreneurs. We really need to give the Avenues approach -6-8 storey buildings that are dense but built to conserve the streetscape - a chance.

I absolutely agree that density has to rise around transit. That may not mean putting towers everywhere, however.

I agree with both these statements. From what I understand, however, (and I am not in planning or development) the city does not make it easy or profitable for developers to build such buildings, which is why we end up with towers on a podium. It’s a really crappy outcome of the current planning and zoning regimen.

 

[afransen]

Doesn't transit kind of inherently gentrify?

 

[afransen]

I think we should take a look at restricting the sizes of these ground level retail units. The only companies that can afford these massive units are the big banks, Shoppers drug mart, Starbucks, etc...

Similar to zoning the size of residential units, perhaps there should be requirements for number of smaller/narrower commercial units.

 

[asher__jo]

Personally, I would argue that the now-ubiquitous base-podium-with-tower-above mentality is producing few districts with character, and few walkable streets, and less opportunity to site small businesses and new entrepreneurs. We really need to give the Avenues approach -6-8 storey buildings that are dense but built to conserve the streetscape - a chance.

Couldn't agree more. Not only does it satisfy the desires of the most parties, but it may end up being more dense than a few high-rises being littered around.

 

[toronto647]

I know what you mean about transit outperforming expectations. But I don't think it's an apples to apples comparison.

The Canada Line is the only north-south rapid transit connection route, is the only rapid transit to YVR from day one and still is, and Vancouver has a policy of mandatory high-density rezoning around stations with an emphasis on TOD.

The Crosstown is competing (kind of) with the Bloor Line for east-west trips as well as UPE for downtown airport trips, and Toronto resists every zoning application going through the many yellow-belt 'stable' neighbourhoods it runs through. There's also the fact that the airport extension is not yet planned, only an extension to Renforth is planned to open by the early 2030s.

Toronto is way behind in creating TODs along transit lines. Hopefully, that will change with the forced zoning reforms implemented a few years ago.

Just a point to add. There will be a shuttle bus from Renforth to each of the terminals. And the folks at GTAA are in the process of creating plans for the line to be extended to the airport which will likely happen shortly after EGWLRT is open

 

[nfitz]

Just a point to add. There will be a shuttle bus from Renforth to each of the terminals. And the folks at GTAA are in the process of creating plans for the line to be extended to the airport which will likely happen shortly after EGWLRT is open

With a decade or so necessary to build the underground piece from Weston towards Renforth, if there's enough will, the piece from Renforth to Pearson could be completed at the same time.. It's complexity is more similar to Line 6 Finch West than Eglinton, which is scheduled to open in 2023, about 4 years after construction started in 2019. In comparison the first phase of Eglinton started construction in 2011, and it's scheduled to open in 2022, about 12 years after construction started (13 years after they ordered the TBMs.)

Let's be optimistic, and construction starts on Phase 2 in 2021, and it opens in 2031. They could easily wait until 2025 to start construction on the link to Pearson.

Another comparison is the elevated UPE link to Pearson. It didn't start construction until spring 2012, and opened in spring 2015 - only 3 years!

Imagine how soon the extension to Renforth could open, if it stuck to the original plan, and was a mix of elevated and at-grade.