Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Northern Light]

I think at this point they would rather build a line that is either just right or a bit undersized so the capacity can justify the line so that if it did fill up quickly, they can lobby for extensions and expansions.
However I would caution against treating projected riderships as gospel. Remember what was the sheppard line and their claimed ridership?

Never came.

Definitely never treat projections as an absolute truth.

Even when well done, in good faith, they are an 'educated, guess'.

While Sheppard was not the line that should have been prioritized at the time that it was; I would not want to be unfair on its not meeting projections.

The line was shorted to Don Mills from VP, missing a very important employment district; and an easier, quicker, connection to points east; and also saw Willowdale Station cut as as well.

Its difficult to assess what portion of the shortcoming owes to the shortening, and cheapening of the line, vs excess inflation in the original numbers; but its likely fair to say that both played a role.

 

[syn]

From what I've seen it would add approximately 25k in residential units, however that is a phased approach likely to take a decade in a highly industrial/low density area. Crosstown can easily handle that. People read LRT and instantly assume it can't handle much, but the line is highly future-proofed.

I'm sure Crosstown can handle several Golden Mile type projects.

If Spadina can handle the kind of development it's current receiving (along with what's already there) then the Crosstown should be good for another century.

Unfortunately a decade of rhetoric around LRTs has convinced people it's nothing more than a slow streetcar line, when it's really just a step below a subway.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm sure Crosstown can handle several Golden Mile type projects.

If Spadina can handle the kind of development it's current receiving (along with what's already there) then the Crosstown should be good for another century.

Unfortunately a decade of rhetoric around LRTs has convinced people it's nothing more than a slow streetcar line, when it's really just a step below a subway.

1) Spadina can't. (pre-pandemic) it was very crowded, running near breaking point capacity at times, and unable to function properly in the loops with vehicle queues some several deep.

2) Spadina has the line 1 University Section only 750m to the east acting as a relief valve. The Crosstown does not have a relief valve.

We need to be clear, I'm not championing an all underground alignment, nor hoping the line reaches capacity prematurely.

Rather, I'm suggesting we have modelling and real-world experience that suggests the proposed densities of the Golden Mile Plan will severely tax that capacity over time.

There are myriad ways that might be addressed from scaling back development; to a mid-town GO Line (which might intercept passengers further north); or a Sheppard extension, etc etc.

Its also possible the modelling is wrong. But I don't think its reasonable to be dismissive of it; absent clear evidence.

 

[syn]

1) Spadina can't. (pre-pandemic) it was very crowded, running near breaking point capacity at times, and unable to function properly in the loops with vehicle queues some several deep.

2) Spadina has the line 1 University Section only 750m to the east acting as a relief valve. The Crosstown does not have a relief valve.

We need to be clear, I'm not championing an all underground alignment, nor hoping the line reaches capacity prematurely.

Rather, I'm suggesting we have modelling and real-world experience that suggests the proposed densities of the Golden Mile Plan will severely tax that capacity over time.

There are myriad ways that might be addressed from scaling back development; to a mid-town GO Line (which might intercept passengers further north); or a Sheppard extension, etc etc.

Its also possible the modelling is wrong. But I don't think its reasonable to be dismissive of it; absent clear evidence.

Agreed.

My point was that even with the Golden Mile project Eglinton is nowhere near reaching a Spadina-level situation.

 

[nfitz]

1) Spadina can't. (pre-pandemic) it was very crowded, running near breaking point capacity at times, and unable to function properly in the loops with vehicle queues some several deep.

The biggest issue with Spadina is that they can only handle a single car at a time in Spadina station. They need to extend the loading zone there to 90 metres ... somehow. Similarly at Union - though that's at least in the works.

 

[nfitz]

Taking a look at this document from the Transportation Research Board on light rail capacity (it's from 1999 and I'm not sure if there's a more recent review that similarly discusses capacity by mode) the figure below (p. 3-75) suggests that 15000 seems to be just around the upper limit for a light-rail train of 90m with maximum grade-separation.

15,000 would require quite significantly advanced traffic signals, that's for sure - something that Toronto has failed to ever implement, and ahead of what was available in 1999. But that is decades away ... look at the peak AM demand east of Victoria Park. It's only 3,000 (approaching Victoria Park westbound) for 2031!

 

[drum118]

Jan 01
All the rails are now being wrap with rubber like TTC, except in about 4' length including all rails already installed. Does this mean rails will have concrete pour between them like TTC in place of being exposed??

Has a major Opp's!! taken place??

On top of that, all rail already installed have been removed or in the process of doing so from the concrete beam support along with all anchor plates. This also means cutting the splice at intersections so the rail can sit on 4 x 4. Looks like some of the anchor plates being grouted into place under the trap. This allows the wrapping of the rubber for the rail and otherthings.

Didn't see it over at Pharmacy Area that was to be the first area fully installed and could be taking place, but over at Golden Mile Station 2 1 inch coated wires are being place under the rail.

Some stations have part of the ramp in place with railing to the platform.

Looking at the Don Mills Intersection, it really shows how much land was used to put in the station and relocating the road.

Lot more up on site and this was an unplan stop after my Dec look since I ended up doing some photographing near the DVP that I couldn't do last week.

 

[W. K. Lis]

At one time, the rails were the return ground for the electrical power. Nowadays, they add grounding wire to make sure that the return does not stray.

From link.

A stray current collection system is a means to pick up the stray current that leaks from the running rails, in order to provide a low resistance path for the stray current itself, thus avoiding possible interference with third-party infrastructures. The upper layer of reinforcing bars in the concrete track bed of a traction system may be used for this purpose. Such a stray current collection mat has then a twofold function: it works as a structural support and as a conductive path for the stray current. The rebars are welded together into sections and the sections are connected together in a way to provide a low resistance continuous path for the collected stray current.

 

[nfitz]

I guess we'll just have to see once the line is running over the next decade. I'm perfectly happy if the realized demand matches the projections over the next 20 years. If by 2040, we still have ample room to 10-15k pphpd and that going from 10k to 15k in terms of service is simple enough to do, then great!

On the other hand, looking at the original ridership estimates, they were based on 2001-2009 data, and only went out to 2031. And it's interesting to see that the projected population increase to 2031 is pretty much the current population.

But really ... if by the 2040s, they are really overloading this line, then can add a couple of fly-overs. Or better yet, add a parallel line on Lawrence East of St. Clair East (now there could be some fantastic bridges!). Though I suspect it will be decades later before that's a real issue.

 

[Steve X]

15k ppdph is achievable on the surface portion if you can get a train with 500 rider through an intersection on every 2 minute traffic cycle. 45 seconds should be enough time to get a 100m train from rest to move across the intersection. As long as trains can arrive before the intersection on regular 2 min intervals, it can be done. Ppdph has nothing to do with average speed, so rider experience on waiting at every red light will definitely won't be great. Especially if it's going to be slow.

Considering King can move 8k ppdph with the current configuration and Flexity cars. A streetcar through an intersection every minute with 135 riders gives 8100 ppdph. The only reason why capacity is no where close to that today is they don't have enough streetcars to run at 60-90 second headways. Transit Toronto mentions the Bloor Streetcar moved 9k ppdph in the final years. Of course a heavier longer train with a longer suburb traffic cycle though a wider intersection would reduce capacity. Hence a train every minute on Eglinton is not achievable.

This really shouldn't be an issue in the foreseeable future, Line 2 would be converted to ATO (hopefully) by 2040 along with a completed SSE. So Scarborough riders would most likely continuing their way through Kennedy while a 5min bus from Eglinton/Warden on the 68/968 to Line 2 will still be a decent option. I don't see why Line 5 will generate huge demands on the eastern section anything soon. Line 4 gain zero riders after 20 years of condo boom.

 

[NoahB]

15k ppdph is achievable on the surface portion if you can get a train with 500 rider through an intersection on every 2 minute traffic cycle. 45 seconds should be enough time to get a 100m train from rest to move across the intersection. As long as trains can arrive before the intersection on regular 2 min intervals, it can be done. Ppdph has nothing to do with average speed, so rider experience on waiting at every red light will definitely won't be great. Especially if it's going to be slow.

Considering King can move 8k ppdph with the current configuration and Flexity cars. A streetcar through an intersection every minute with 135 riders gives 8100 ppdph. The only reason why capacity is no where close to that today is they don't have enough streetcars to run at 60-90 second headways. Transit Toronto mentions the Bloor Streetcar moved 9k ppdph in the final years. Of course a heavier longer train with a longer suburb traffic cycle though a wider intersection would reduce capacity. Hence a train every minute on Eglinton is not achievable.

This really shouldn't be an issue in the foreseeable future, Line 2 would be converted to ATO (hopefully) by 2040 along with a completed SSE. So Scarborough riders would most likely continuing their way through Kennedy while a 5min bus from Eglinton/Warden on the 68/968 to Line 2 will still be a decent option. I don't see why Line 5 will generate huge demands on the eastern section anything soon. Line 4 gain zero riders after 20 years of condo boom.

A train every 2 minutes means one every 1 minute in each direction. The trains are bound to stop at red lights and then bunch up at that rate. (which frequently happens to Toronto's Streetcars)

LA Metro's LRTs have a limit of 6-minute headways because going any more frequent than that would cause paralyzing gridlock on intersecting streets. It is something to keep in mind.

 

[Steve X]

A train every 2 minutes means one every 1 minute in each direction. The trains are bound to stop at red lights and then bunch up at that rate. (which frequently happens to Toronto's Streetcars)

LA Metro has a limit of 6-minute headways because any more frequent than that would cause paralyzing gridlock on intersecting streets. It is something to keep in mind.

Let's be clear that it's 2 minutes per direction or 30 trains per hour. At this rate, trains would have a 62.5% chance of hitting a red light at every intersection and thus isn't ideal. (Assuming there's 45 sec of green light in 2 minutes). The point is getting 15k riders through a point. The maximum capacity of the line would be determined by the worst idling location. If no traffic lights and station dwelling time exceeds a minute, there would be enough room to keep trains 2 minute apart.

The city has quoted that trains need to be at least 4 minute apart. I assume that meant there is some sort of priority. Otherwise, they could let them bunch up like streetcars. Bunching up isn't a big issue. As long as there's no gaps and everything is moving, the capacity would be available.

Since we are talking about no transit priority, traffic would be the same if there's no trains running vs trains running every 2 minutes. The gridlock would paralyze traffic if they have priority where cars would have to stop for trains to pass. That's something TO refuses to implement.

 

[anb]

So let me get this straight, its a subway for the York and Old Toronto portion but a streetcar for the North York and Scarborough portion...

 

[ARG1]

So let me get this straight, its a subway for the York and Old Toronto portion but a streetcar for the North York and Scarborough portion...

Yes

 

[syn]

15,000 would require quite significantly advanced traffic signals, that's for sure - something that Toronto has failed to ever implement, and ahead of what was available in 1999. But that is decades away ... look at the peak AM demand east of Victoria Park. It's only 3,000 (approaching Victoria Park westbound) for 2031!

For some perspective, that's generally considered the lowest threshold for moving from bus service to higher order transit.

Assuming a subway connection to STC is completed, this line should not have any capacity issues for a long, long time.