Subway To Mississauga: Routing

[kEiThZ]

Marko.

Nice map. But I don't see the TTC paying for a subway that bypasses Sherway Gardens. Building subways that serve the 905 is one thing. Building one's that serve the 905 by skipping past major nodes inside the 416 is a different matter all together.

 

[Marko]

Marko.

Nice map. But I don't see the TTC paying for a subway that bypasses Sherway Gardens. Building subways that serve the 905 is one thing. Building one's that serve the 905 by skipping past major nodes inside the 416 is a different matter all together.

I mostly agree, but unless it can easily carry on from Sherway to additional destinations, it's hard to work in as and end-point destination.

I've redone 2 maps to show the following:

Zoomed in map = Bloor line extended to Sherway, then back to to Dundas to continue on to MCC

Larger map show possibility of extending Bloor line to Sherway, then on to Dixie Mall and Port Credit along Lakeshore, before turning north at Hurontario. it could be done wither past Cloverdale and down the 427 as shown in the zoomed map - or perhaps better - stay above ground along the rail lands parallel to Kipling and then make a tun along Queensay by the Ikea store. Put a stop there and then continue west along Queensway to Sherway and beyond.

This line AND the Dundas>Kipling would not have to be either/or decisions - they could both make sense at some point down the road as Dundas and Port Credit represent the best areas for increased density development.

Also in the larger map, I removed the LRT that looped down to Lakeshore (as buses could handle any surface requirements with a subway in place), and moved it up to cross along Queensway and also does a loop around Sherway and Dixie Mall, which both have areas for added residential around them, not to mention some opportunity along Queensway itself, between Hurontario and Dixie. There is a very large tract of land that looks like it was intended to twin the current lanes there, so adding in a ROW and purchasing a single row of homes along he adjacent streets would leave plenty of room for really nice mid density residential.

** Added further, is the sometimes suggested Lakeshore subway line, that cuts thru the CNE grounds and hen follows Queens Quay east towards the Port Lands. IIRC, this is one of the Metrolinx *best case* proposals also, but when you factor in the residential that both exists and could be developed along these nicer stretches of near-the-lake lands, it actually makes a lot of sense in the not so distant future.

 

[drum118]

A subway on the lakeshore is worse than the Yonge extension. LRT is all that going to be needed.

Have no issues with the LRT idea, but the east-west must connect to TO system. Dixie ranks 4th in what I see in the way of LRT for Miss.

I see no need for the subway to go to Sherway now or 20 years down the road.

 

[Marko]

I was thinking 20~30 years before it sees anything close to completion, though that could get dragged even longer as it gets more expensive with each passing year.

This map is the *eventual* coverage, whether parts be LRT or subway can be determined based on more accurate projections, especially Lakeshore and Dixie, though dedicated ROW would be ideal.

 

[andrewpmk]

My plan - mostly relying on GO

I would rely primarily on improved GO service rather than subway to serve Mississauga, as it is faster (the Bloor subway is a milk run in Toronto, and I don't anticipate very heavy demand between Mississauga and points west of downtown). In a second phase, I would add a local line along Dundas paralleling the GO line and going further west.

- Expanded GO service on Milton, Lakeshore, Georgetown lines. Milton will have a branch to Mississauga City Centre, and express services running between Hurontario and Union. Express services will be added on Georgetown and expanded on Lakeshore.
- Hurontario - initially LRT, later subway - from Port Credit to Queen Street in Brampton.
- Eglinton - initially LRT, later subway - from eastern boundary (connection to TTC line) to Winston Churchill.
- B-D subway extension - to be added later, replacing Dundas LRT. Provides local service paralleling GO line and then west to Winston Churchill, with possible extension to Oakville.

 

[andrewpmk]

Map

Hurontario (yellow)
Eglinton (red)
Lakeshore GO (blue)
Dundas / Bloor-Danforth extension (green)
Georgetown GO (dark green)
Milton GO (orange)

 

[Ansem]

Hope for Mississauga?

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/737937--would-be-mayor-is-cagey-on-reform-details

But too many of them have no job, or work in the suburbs. "Celebration is hollow if our people are commuting clear out of town," he said.

Smitherman said Toronto shouldn't wall itself in and has to recognize that the region extends beyond its borders.

"If we make the most of our region as a whole, we will make the most for the people of Toronto."

Transit is a perfect example of Toronto's failure to look beyond its own borders, he said.

"Too many transit users at the moment are subjected to the fragmentation that occurs when you go to cross a municipal boundary." Smitherman said he experienced that frustration first-hand as a teenager, when he lived in Etobicoke, worked in Mississauga and visited his father in Brampton.

 

[hbl33]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/737937--would-be-mayor-is-cagey-on-reform-details

Hmm the "McGuilty's slave" isn't really a bad guy after all - calling for actual TTC expansion beyond its own borders, to Mississauga as well?

I won't say anything until if Smitherman is really going to address on DRL as well, that is first thing they should do before even extending B+D to Sauga. If so, my perception regarding him will slowly change...

 

[Tdot_one]

It's only 2.5 km from Downsview to Vaughan CC? Really?

It's only 2.5km from Highway 7 Transit Way. Remember York University is just some 5km away or so and is a huge trip generator. VCC's development will part of larger change that involves Downsview and York University.

More potential in extensions to York? Maybe on the Yonge line, but only because it's Yonge St. On the Spadina side, no way in hell.

Downsview and York University? The development on Downsview is bound to converge with NYCC. Its only some 5km away and it is only natural that westward development follows especially if the Sheppard line is extended to Downsview.

The equivalent of NYCC is MCC. And VCC isn't anywhere near MCC, so you can't even compare the two. On top of that, MT's ridership is much higher. And you have a much greater population base than all of York Region just in Mississauga. Not to mention the GTA is west-leaning. Logically the subway would reach further west, where the population is.

Yes, VCC is definitely not comparable to the MCC. However my argument is that it isn't that far from the development within Downsview, the huge trip generator in York University (bound to expand immensely) and its not that far from NYCC either.

On the other hand, are similar trip generators located near MCC? Unless there is going to be a huge development from Kipling to Square One, it wouldn't make any sense. It would make more sense for the city to have its own RT loop separate from the subway.

Can Dundas be redeveloped and intensified? Absolutely yes. The incentive of a subway on crappy strip malls would be immense. There's already thousands of people taking the slow crappy MT buses along Dundas (and neighbouring routes) as it is. A subway along Dundas would draw riders from every north-west route from Hurontario to Dixie, and very likely east-west routes in close proximity, e.g. Rathburn, Burnhamthorpe, Bloor and of course Dundas.

Hard to disagree with you there. Intensification would easily follow considering there isn't anything substantially residential on those parts.

What is the ONE thing that would convince more Mississaugans to take the public transit? A subway from Square One to Toronto.

Wouldn't a more frequent GO connection with a loop centred around Misissauga make a lot more sense? That would connect the population to Union St which is much closer to their place of employment.

Is there anything over in Etobicoke?

Toronto has always planned for the Sherway-Dixie extension. Unfortunately Hazel and her cadre fumbled the ball on that issue quite miserably.

Yes, that's the main reason why two lines are going through the York Region.

 

[Tdot_one]

Correction to my post above:

I meant 2.5km from VCC to Steeles Station ( Jane & Steeles). Keep in mind that the station is close to the working class community of Jane and Finch (numbering 80,000) so it'll be well utilized. The same can be said about Finch West station as well.

Highway 407 transitway ought to be a very successful feeder station as well. It shouldn't be very difficult to intensify the area. In addition, Canada's Wonderland isn't too far off either.

 

[Marko]

Wouldn't a more frequent GO connection with a loop centred around Misissauga make a lot more sense? That would connect the population to Union St which is much closer to their place of employment

This presumes that most Missisaugans work downtown, which is false. More people come into Mississauga each day than leave, so a new subway like this could take just as many people out of Toronto daily if suitable stations and connections are implemented. A direct run to Union Station would benefit only those who do work downtown, but be of no help to the even larger number of people who live or work along this route, or can use this line to access other points with more ease and/or speed.

Dundas between Confederation and Mattawa could EASILY be intensified considering the empty pockets and/or low grade strip malls that clutter this strip at the moment. With the height of buildings going up elsewhere, I could picture another 'strip' like NYCC, if a subway was there to support it - potentially far more residential than what will be built along Sheppard, with a whole lot more retail and industry already in place.

 

[Dan416]

I wish people would stop mentioning GO as a replacement for a Mississauga subway. It's not. You can wax romantically about not building rapid transit lines based on fare structure, but like it or not, it does affect how people travel.

I'll compare cash fares to keep it simple. Cash fare on MT is $3.00. On TTC it's currently $2.75, going up to $3.00. So cash fare for municipal transit is approximately $6.00.

GO fares on the Milton line run from $4.80 at Dixie to $7.00 at Lisgar. Adding just a TTC fare to the Dixie fare will run you up to $7.80. That's almost $2 more than taking municipal transit alone. So if your destination is anywhere other than Union Station, that is, requiring one to get on the TTC after taking GO, then it's not worth it (depending on your definition of worth of course). If you're starting at Lisgar, adding a TTC fare on top of that will soon be $10 one way. So the further out you go, the more you pay, and the cheaper the municipal transit option looks ($6 one-way versus $10 one-way, which one would you choose?). And on top of that, some people want us to take municipal transit to the GO station. So add another $0.60 on top of that.

No matter how often GO transit runs, the cost will always be a big factor in people not taking it. There are definitely people who will take it (see the Lakeshore Line) but when municipal transit is so much cheaper, why not focus on improving it?

A subway extension to East Mall and Sherway is a no brainer. The TTC has had it on its books at least since RTES. Sherway is getting its share of condo sans any transit improvement, so a subway would only improve that. Continuing along to Dixie would also be relatively easy if the line followed the CP/GO line. But once it reaches Dixie/Dundas, it should really continue west along Dundas which is the busiest east-west route in Mississauga.

 

[CDL.TO]

Uh-huh. And if the fare for GO goes down to equal the cost for MT/TTC? What then?

The current local transit/regional transit fare different is completely artificial. There's no structural reason reason for it to be that way, and it doesn't work that way in most cities with properly-developed transit systems.

The lower costs of upgrading the GO line, rather than tunneling a completely new route, means that logically the fares on a GO line should be CHEAPER, not more expensive. But these things aren't determined by such logic, they're determined by government policy. And if the government policy decided to create an integrated fare system across the region, it could happen with the stoke of a pen.

For frak's sake, The Netherlands works on ONE fare system for buses, light rail, subways, and regional rail trains for the ENTIRE COUNTRY.

 

[kettal]

Clearly, the only way to save money for riders is to spend billions on building redundant infrastructure.

 

[kettal]

Aadmit it, you just have a subway fetish you're trying to itch. And even you would use the GO train over the slower subway. Just admit it.