Subway To Mississauga: Routing

[jwill]

Mississauga lost its chance for a subway extension when it decided to locate square one in the middle of nowhere, instead of someplace easy to extend a subway to.

York Region on the other hand has been building up Yonge St, and has made plans for VCC which is coincidentally the closest part of York to the Spadina subway.

If mississauga really wants a subway, then its their responsibility to provide the riders. Give incentives for higher densities all along Dundas, and concentrate on building up Dixie/Dundas. Then there will be no reason not to extend the Bloor line.

 

[Dan416]

If the subway extension followed Dundas St, completely replacing the buses on Dundas East and did not serve Square One, then really there would be no arguement. The Milton GO Train will never be a true alternative to a true Dundas subway or LRT that realises the immense redevelopment potential of the entire Dundas East corridor. But proponents of subway extension in Mississauga don't want a Dundas subway line. Instead, they want a redundant and pointless direct subway extension to Square One. Too bad.

I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about? How is a subway to Square One not a Dundas subway? The subway has to hit Sherway (that's in the TTC's plans) and then it can only rejoin Dundas at Dixie-Dundas. From there, it should of course follow Dundas as much as possible. The only real debatable point is whether it should follow Dundas strictly and end at Hurontario-Dundas, or veer off Dundas sooner to hit MCC. Both options have their pluses and negatives. If the Hurontario LRT is completed by then, riders could transfer at Hurontario-Dundas to the Hurontario LRT if they want to head north, or even south. But such an alignment almost mimics GO more than an extension directly into MCC.

 

[Fresh Start]

If the subway extension followed Dundas St, completely replacing the buses on Dundas East and did not serve Square One, then really there would be no arguement. The Milton GO Train will never be a true alternative to a true Dundas subway or LRT that realises the immense redevelopment potential of the entire Dundas East corridor. But proponents of subway extension in Mississauga don't want a Dundas subway line. Instead, they want a redundant and pointless direct subway extension to Square One. Too bad.

A subway along Dundas would be at a loss, not a gain. TOD isn't guaranteed by the implementation of a subway. It is only very recently that infill growth is occuring around some select stations, and that's only limited to the odd high-rise condo or mid-rise loft. The entire character of Dundas East however might change due to raised rents/lease rates damaging a major commerical zone that people from all over the GTA regularly visit in search of deals.

Also think of how much more expensive such a line would be (would have to be completely underground and require more stations through lower-density eastern Mississauga) and wind up intercepting less nodal areas overall. Following Milton Sub still intercepts Dixie-Dundas, Cawthra-Dundas and routes three blocks north of Hurontario-Dundas. Downtown Cooksville extends right up to John Street. If the subway makes it as far as Cooksville, knowing fair well the levels of density which exist two kilometres to the north why wouldn't the subway not just continue up to MCC rather than impose an unnecessary transfer point?

 

[Fresh Start]

Mississauga lost its chance for a subway extension when it decided to locate square one in the middle of nowhere, instead of someplace easy to extend a subway to.

Um, MCC began its development from 1973 - 39 years ago. By this timeframe the Spadina subway wasn't even built yet, not opening til 1978. How much foresight should Mississauga have had? Also, Hurontario is Mississauga's version of Yonge Street and the 403 is the most opportune access for motorists from the 401, 410, 407 and QEW. If anything York Region is copying Mississauga's planning model via locating its urban growth centres alongside highway corridors. Geographically, it is the middle-point of the city meaning roughly similar commute times from all corners of Mississauga to it. So your "middle of nowhere" assertion is moot. It was the best vantage point for planners and developers and I'd say it has paid off with dividends tenfold. To this day new skyscrapers are going up.

York Region on the other hand has been building up Yonge St, and has made plans for VCC which is coincidentally the closest part of York to the Spadina subway.

Steeles West would be the closest part of York Region to TYSSE and planning VMCC there would have done away with the silly fare tariff debacle. And you cannot redevelop a heritage community such as Historic Thornhill. There's a few towers at Clark. That's it. RHC as is only has big-box chain stores. If that area is to be great, let them build it up first then we can debate expanding the subway. Right now there's no precedent for the subway to leave the 416. Between BRT, LRT and electricified commuter rail the residents of these planned communities around the 407/7/Yonge have it pretty good in contrast to much of Scarborough, North York, Etobicoke, York, East York and the Old City of Toronto as well the airport region.

If mississauga really wants a subway, then its their responsibility to provide the riders. Give incentives for higher densities all along Dundas, and concentrate on building up Dixie/Dundas. Then there will be no reason not to extend the Bloor line.

Dixie-Dundas is very high-density already, comparable to Scarborough's Golden Mile strip of mixed commerical and high-rise residential properties. There's land availability for more further intensification and infill as well. It could support a subway by today's standards and I'd recommend ending the subway there, with intermediaries at Sherway Gdns and Honeydale Mall. REX rail could continue onwards to past Cooksville then tunnel under Confederation to veer back into CCTT, leaving local Milton GO to serve the rest of northwest Mississauga.

 

[PaulG]

A continuation of Eglinton Crosstown LRT. From the Airport down to Renforth, then across Eglinton Ave W to Hurontario, then down to Square One Shopping Centre, then across Burnhamthorpe to Erindale GO Station.

 

[Agram]

Before the dead end Sheppard line was built, TTC wanted to extend the line to Square 1 and HAzel was all for it.........but on one condition.......TTC pay for everything and all the fares from Square 1 be left to Mississauga, we all know what happened to that plan lol

 

[jwill]

Um, MCC began its development from 1973 - 39 years ago. By this timeframe the Spadina subway wasn't even built yet, not opening til 1978. How much foresight should Mississauga have had? Also, Hurontario is Mississauga's version of Yonge Street and the 403 is the most opportune access for motorists from the 401, 410, 407 and QEW. If anything York Region is copying Mississauga's planning model via locating its urban growth centres alongside highway corridors. Geographically, it is the middle-point of the city meaning roughly similar commute times from all corners of Mississauga to it. So your "middle of nowhere" assertion is moot. It was the best vantage point for planners and developers and I'd say it has paid off with dividends tenfold. To this day new skyscrapers are going up.

I agree that it seems to have paid off during the car-dependent phase of growth. But if Mississauga wanted their centre to be served by a subway then they should have put up at least along Dundas. Surely in 1978 somebody noticed the Bloor subway achingly close to Mississauga at Islington. Yet they decided to throw all the future growth into farmers fields with no clear way to connect to the TTC subway.

The fact that we are having a debate about which route to take means that Mississauga (unlike York Region) has positioned itself poorly to take advantage of a potential subway extension.

Major centres in York are close enough to Toronto's major centres (NYCC, York U) to allow for a fairly cheap extension up there. If VMCC was as far away from York U as MCC is from Kipling, then of course it wouldn't be getting an extension.

 

[khris]

Mississauga lost its chance for a subway extension when it decided to locate square one in the middle of nowhere, instead of someplace easy to extend a subway to.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on this site in a while.
Mississauga didn't decide to locate Square One in it's location. The developer did. The mall is not what makes the city centre the downtown anyway.

 

[Dan416]

A subway along Dundas would be at a loss, not a gain. TOD isn't guaranteed by the implementation of a subway. It is only very recently that infill growth is occuring around some select stations, and that's only limited to the odd high-rise condo or mid-rise loft. The entire character of Dundas East however might change due to raised rents/lease rates damaging a major commerical zone that people from all over the GTA regularly visit in search of deals.

Also think of how much more expensive such a line would be (would have to be completely underground and require more stations through lower-density eastern Mississauga) and wind up intercepting less nodal areas overall. Following Milton Sub still intercepts Dixie-Dundas, Cawthra-Dundas and routes three blocks north of Hurontario-Dundas. Downtown Cooksville extends right up to John Street. If the subway makes it as far as Cooksville, knowing fair well the levels of density which exist two kilometres to the north why wouldn't the subway not just continue up to MCC rather than impose an unnecessary transfer point?

Not that i have the numbers, but it seems to me eastern Mississauga is much higher in density than anywhere in the west, save the parts of MCC west of Hurontario. Eastern Mississauga has countless apartment builds, especially on Bloor Street (which is why I believe Bloor should be considered for the subway over Dundas, because it's closer to MCC; but that would really require an extensive study).

 

[jwill]

That is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on this site in a while.
Mississauga didn't decide to locate Square One in it's location. The developer did. The mall is not what makes the city centre the downtown anyway.

The city sets the zoning. Its the tool used to direct growth to certain areas, and prevent it in others. Mississauga chose to allow high-density growth in an area far away from the subway. There are a lot of advantages to its location, but one disadvantage is the difficulty of serving it by subway.

 

[Dan416]

The city sets the zoning. Its the tool used to direct growth to certain areas, and prevent it in others. Mississauga chose to allow high-density growth in an area far away from the subway. There are a lot of advantages to its location, but one disadvantage is the difficulty of serving it by subway.

I don't see a problem with where MCC is located. But Dundas should certainly be zoned for high density residential with retail mixed use all along from Hurontario to Etobicoke Creek.

 

[kettal]

Yes. Dundas at the moment sucks big time.

 

[Dan416]

Yes. Dundas at the moment sucks big time.

Sucks is too strong a word. It is very... suburban. Just tons and tons of furniture stores, independent stores, all sorts of crap. It could be so much better. But you can't knock it for not being busy, because there is a lot of retail there, and it's a busy road, and high in transit usage.

 

[Fresh Start]

I agree that it seems to have paid off during the car-dependent phase of growth. But if Mississauga wanted their centre to be served by a subway then they should have put up at least along Dundas. Surely in 1978 somebody noticed the Bloor subway achingly close to Mississauga at Islington. Yet they decided to throw all the future growth into farmers fields with no clear way to connect to the TTC subway.

The fact that we are having a debate about which route to take means that Mississauga (unlike York Region) has positioned itself poorly to take advantage of a potential subway extension.

Major centres in York are close enough to Toronto's major centres (NYCC, York U) to allow for a fairly cheap extension up there. If VMCC was as far away from York U as MCC is from Kipling, then of course it wouldn't be getting an extension.

The location is optimal right where it is. Dundas couldn't have provided such land availability nor ready access from all four corners of Mississauga. I also don't know why urban planning must have been contingent upon the faint possibility that the Toronto Transit Commission would agree to allowing its subways to enter another region. Territoriality was and mostly still is a very divisive social and economic issue that the various transit operators have yet to figure out fully. And I don't think Mississauga City Centre, an independent moreso than codependent urban node, could have afforded to wait forty years for the solution.

And there is nothing fairly cheap about the Richmond Hill extension. $5-6 billion dollars to route a subway through a undevelopable heritage community is a head-scratcher. The two major nodes (Yonge-Clark and Richmond Hill Ctr) it seeks to connect can just as readily be served by rapid express DMU or ALRT via the York and Bala Subs into a new Steeles terminal permiting a cross-platfrom interchange. Electrifying the GO corridor such that 5-min or better headways on the Richmond Hill GO line can be achieved means that a subway that runs from RHC to Union would be redundant and unwarranted. 905 commuters are only feeding into the Yonge Line because planners refuse to strategize alternate solutions for customers. They are content with quadrupuling demand levels onto the one singular line, then wonder why overcrowding and leaving customers on the platform is a common occurence. REX Richmond Hill, busways and N-S LRT lines are a better usage of that money and would cater to a broader segment of the population. So to me pushing for a subway to Highway 7 is a copout, particularly if TYSSE is meant to convert over some YRT trips that formerly would use Finch Stn. With the 407 Transitway, long-haulers from Markham would still experience a fast rapid commute to the subway then down from there into the downtown. It takes several alternatives, not just one.

 

[Fresh Start]

Not that i have the numbers, but it seems to me eastern Mississauga is much higher in density than anywhere in the west, save the parts of MCC west of Hurontario. Eastern Mississauga has countless apartment builds, especially on Bloor Street (which is why I believe Bloor should be considered for the subway over Dundas, because it's closer to MCC; but that would really require an extensive study).

Eastern Mississauga has actually depopulated within the last decade with the area east of Cooksville (bounded by Bloor-Cawthra-Dundas-Mississauga Valley); Malton; and the area around Lakeshore-Ogden suffering the greatest population loss. Meanwhile Steetsville, Churchill Meadows, Meadowvale, Mavis-MacLaughlin area north of the 403, MCC, Lorne Park and Port Credit have all grown.

Bloor may have apartment buildings, honestly which corridor doesn't, but that does not guarantee high walk-in yield. Dundas would have higher numbers because it'd be more easily accessible for routes from western and southern Sauga. Dundas also has actual trip-generator in the form of its popular, well-publicized, high in demand commercial retail strip from Cawthra to Universal. Bloor is more limited in its catchment, really only from Eastgate southwards. Dundas riders would still continue to head towards Kipling (or Honeydale/East Mall).