Subway To Mississauga: Routing

[kEiThZ]

The alternative to a subway I would think is for M'sauga to build its own LRT network (Dundas, Hurontario, Eglinton) that connects into the TTC network at various points (Sherway, airport, Kipling, Eglinton). This should more than the current LRT plans, which for example don't call for service west of Hurontario on Dundas. LRT sould support intra-Mississauga travel far better than a few subway stops. It would provide more rapid transit coverage and have good links to regional rail.

 

[doady]

Dundas is not dense enough west of Hurontario, and plus it has to serve UTM and Uptown Oakville. BRT would be best for this corridor.

East of Hurontario, subway is best for Dundas. LRT would be pointless since it would be a short line and just add a transfer.

Eglinton doesn't need LRT I don't think. The service now is actually pretty good.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Dundas is not dense enough west of Hurontario, and plus it has to serve UTM and Uptown Oakville. BRT would be best for this corridor.

East of Hurontario, subway is best for Dundas. LRT would be pointless since it would be a short line and just add a transfer.

Eglinton doesn't need LRT I don't think. The service now is actually pretty good.

But is Dundas west of Hurontario "dense enough" for LRT? Such a line would not be short and, therefore, less pointless.

LRT to Oakville is pretty pointless, though, when express/GO buses can do the same thing (whatever that thing is) for virtually no money and probably a heck of a lot quicker.

 

[doady]

But is Dundas west of Hurontario "dense enough" for LRT?

I don't recall ever saying that...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I don't recall ever saying that...

I know, I'm asking. Not dense enough for subway or for LRT? Is there that much of a difference between what's east and west of Hurontario that one side should get a subway while the other should get BRT? Dundas east of Hurontario is not a bit denser than what's west of Hurontario.

 

[nfitz]

Heck ... is anything west of Hurontario ... or at least Confederation Parkway ... dense enough for LRT!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Nothing east of Hurontario is dense enough, either. Density is a lousy metric to use here.

 

[doady]

I know, I'm asking. Not dense enough for subway or for LRT? Is there that much of a difference between what's east and west of Hurontario that one side should get a subway while the other should get BRT? Dundas east of Hurontario is not a bit denser than what's west of Hurontario.

Dundas East is mostly low-rise and mid-rise, but the density of business and residences is quite high. That is why Dundas is almost as much ridership as Yonge, which is getting a subway. This is the busiest part of the corridor by far

Dundas West has mostly low density housing that cannot be redeveloped. And then there is the Lake Iroquois shoreline also. That is why the ridership is lower much lower here and the buses are empty in comparison to the overcrowded buses east of Hurontario.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Ridership is lower in the west because the east is closer to the subway...that's the only reason. Density is not a factor.

 

[Dan416]

Ridership is lower in the west because the east is closer to the subway...that's the only reason. Density is not a factor.

Not everyone on Dundas is going to the subway. Many are, but not everyone. People get off at many points along the way.

 

[doady]

Ridership is lower in the west because the east is closer to the subway...that's the only reason. Density is not a factor.

The ridership is highest between Hurontario and Dixie. So no, the subway is not the reason, I don't think. But then this shows that a subway extension into Mississauga is not really necessary. Mississauga can easily build a separate rapid transit system, which is why I don't support a subway to MCC.

Density was not the main part of my argument anyways. As I said, BRT would be the best way to serve UTM and Uptown Oakville anyways. And I'll say it again, LRT would be best for the east corridor. But such an LRT would be short and just force another transfer, which is why I called for subway.

But still, a Dundas LRT would directly connect two urban growth centres, so it would not be nearly as pointless as the Scarborough RT or the Sheppard LRT. But I still think the rapid transit network in the GTA will have too much forced transfers so I think subway extension is better for Dundas East.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The alternative to a subway I would think is for M'sauga to build its own LRT network (Dundas, Hurontario, Eglinton) that connects into the TTC network at various points (Sherway, airport, Kipling, Eglinton). This should more than the current LRT plans, which for example don't call for service west of Hurontario on Dundas. LRT sould support intra-Mississauga travel far better than a few subway stops. It would provide more rapid transit coverage and have good links to regional rail.

A Dundas LRT would be good, possibly being underground from Kipling to around Hurontario, maybe being totally Grade Separated the rest of the way. An Eglinton LRT from Pearson would be good as well, but it would probably be sufficient with TC-type LRT. I think Hurontario is the most important route to be Subway though. Even just having a buried Milton Line under Dundas and a Hurontario Subway would be great for Misisssauga. It could definitely use more, but that would be a very good start.

 

[Dan416]

The ridership is highest between Hurontario and Dixie. So no, the subway is not the reason, I don't think. But then this shows that a subway extension into Mississauga is not really necessary. Mississauga can easily build a separate rapid transit system, which is why I don't support a subway to MCC.

Density was not the main part of my argument anyways. As I said, BRT would be the best way to serve UTM and Uptown Oakville anyways. And I'll say it again, LRT would be best for the east corridor. But such an LRT would be short and just force another transfer, which is why I called for subway.

But still, a Dundas LRT would directly connect two urban growth centres, so it would not be nearly as pointless as the Scarborough RT or the Sheppard LRT. But I still think the rapid transit network in the GTA will have too much forced transfers so I think subway extension is better for Dundas East.

I agree. There are far too many forced transfers for no good reason. It's like reinventing the wheel every time. Bloor should continue to MCC to link up with ECC. Sheppard should link STC with NYC, and Danforth should terminate at STC to link it to downtown.

 

[Marko]

OK, so having read this entire thread ad others re: Hurontario LRT, Brampton, etc... I figured the best way to convey my thoughts was a map. I wish more people could do this, though maybe I' just more visually oriented than most.

Please see the attached map image.

Basics:

- Bloor Subway extends west along Dundas, turns north on Hurontario and goes to Square One Station (CCTT)
- Should the Eglinton Subway ever come to life, it is extended right out to MCC also, creating a continuous line
- At the same time, the existing Pearson parking SkyTrain is extended to a proposed Renforth Station. This allows full transit access to the airport via both Toronto and Mississauga subway lines.

After MCC, the greatest likelihood of increased density development will be along the stretch of Dundas between Confederation and say, Mattawa Dr. This stretch is already the busiest E-W transit route in the city, but could develop into a North York CC type of bustling "strip" - definitely subway worthy.

It is for this reason that I propose the subway be run primarily along Dundas and up Hurontario to MCC (and northwards). Ideally the subwat reconnects to Eglinton as proposed, but this could also be LRT from my proposed Eglinton Station (at the new 'Uptown' intensification). The key is to link it to Pearson and Eglinton beyond the 427.

2 Surface LRT "loops" are proposed to connect several key destination areas, including Erin Mills Town Centre and Credit Valley Hospital, UTM (almost), Port Credit, Dixie Value Mall, Rockwood Mall, Bramalea City Centre, Shoppers World and downtown Brampton - not to mention Square one and MCC as the focal point of it all.

Not only do these destinations become connected along simple routes, but the areas traveled between them can carry people to/from work. Yes, the subway lines would integrate seamlessly into 2 major lines feeding into Toronto - but they also traverse very dense residential and/or commercial areas as well. Work commutes could go both ways, and accessing the largest industrial zone in the country (outlined in yellow), as well as the ever growing number of office campuses in NE Mississauga would be much easier. There is room for a lot more office buildings in the tech park south of the 401 opposite the airport, and along the Hurontario corridor from Matheson to Steeles.

Get a job at one of these new places? More people would consider moving to the densified residential along these key routes if there was a genuine transit option to get to work, as LRT/Subway is a more legit tool to get people out of cars than buses.

I didn't even show high schools and other shopping centers, many of which are served by these key routes. The rest is done with busses feeding these lines.

I'm running out of things to say, it' almost 6am and I'm still up... I'm sure there will be both good and bad reviews, but I've laid it out there as my ideal. Let me know if I've missed anything important, as I'm sure I have.

Edits:
- Tomken Station would actually be a little west towards Cawthra, or maybe half way (by the Chinese Centre), as there really isn't much around Cawthra and more retail as you travel east - maybe call it Haines Rd?
- Elm Station would actually be half way between Elm and Central Parkway, to try and bring people a little closer to where more of them will live. There could be a south exit to link to buses along Central Pkway.
- Should things really fill in along Dundas, perhaps a station somewhere east of Kirwin (around Given) could be added. Call it Cooksville Landing?

A second map might make sense to show how the Hurontario line could continue south to Port Credit, east along Lakeshore and then zig past Dixie Mall and Sherway Gardens on its way to connect to Kipling Station. This creates a stronger link to Port Credit (where things are growing) and puts a key station at Trillium Health. The Dundas line could then continue west a little ways to just past Confederation, or maybe even Mavis. The 2 lines woudl intersect at Dundas Station, rather than be one line... though it's possible a 3rd train still makes the original run from MCC to Kipling as an express, and not requiring a transfer at Dundas from Hurontario.

I hope I'm making sense...

 

[Second_in_pie]

Hmm, in my fantasy map...

I'd have the B-D line still terminate at Kipling station.
The Midtown line would come down from a stop in ECC, and would stop at Kipling (where it is now, durr.) Then, the midtown line would continue down all the way to Sherway Gardens (probably in an Elevated ROW,) and have a stop there, to connect Sherway with the rest of the transit network. The Midtown line would then hop up to Dundas in an Elevated ROW, where it would go underground from Dixie for two or three kilometers. Then, it would continue underground to Mississauga City Centre, and rejoin the old Milton line by going across the north end of the 403.

But then, there would be a Dundas LRT (which would use metro-style LRTs,) that would go from Kipling station across Dundas in a Median separated ROW, and would duck underground just before Dixie, using the same tunnel as the Midtown line. It'd continue underground to Mavis Road, where it would go in a median separated ROW again.

This way, there is still a quick route from Etobicoke to Mississauga (Midtown Line,) as well as a link between Mississauga, Etobicoke and Sherway. But there is still the LRT to provide local service between Dixie and Kipling, but which would also act as a Metro in the underground segments between Dixie and Mavis. East of Mavis, it could probably go as far as Winston Churchill Boulevard.

There'd be a GO ALRT route stuck in there too, which would run across the south end of the 403 , then tunnel underground to MCC as well.