Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[44 North]

It does better than any surface route. The Sheppard subway's peak hour/direction ridership is nearly 5,000 people. The King streetcar is the busiest surface route and it's peak hour ridership in both directions is lower than that.

Meh, that's a useless and nonsensical comparison. Not sure why you went out of your way to bold it. King Streetcar capacity through the core is less than 2,000pphpd. Obviously it can't surpass its capacity limit even if it wanted to, and it's pretty apparent that it has considerable unmet/latent demand.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Does anyone know or have plans for what the TTC would have done if the centre platform at Sheppard-Yonge was actually used for revenue service? Logical, there would be a connection to the overpass at the west of the station that connects to all 3 platforms, but what else?

Just to expand on my previous quote:
"Future plans called for the YONGE platforms to be similarly configured, and space was built for these platforms on either side of the YONGE line. These new side-platforms on the YONGE line only extend the width and the length of the SHEPPARD platforms above, and have been covered over. The remaining space will have to be hollowed out, as was done at Union station, when ridership warrants."

-Transit Toronto

Spanish solution!?

 

[Leo_Chan]

Spanish solution!?

Yes, I know the double Spanish Solution may have been built if the entire Sheppard line was built, which may have had the ridership to justify prebuilding it. My question was just how the connections between platforms and concourses would have looked like.

 

[M II A II R II K]

It should go to Rouge Hill to provide an uptown rapid transit route and provide Durham riders easier access to uptown instead of having all rapid transit routes only going downtown.

 

[Irishmonk]

It should go to Rouge Hill to provide an uptown rapid transit route and provide Durham riders easier access to uptown instead of having all rapid transit routes only going downtown.

Next stop: Algonquin Park!!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This is how I envision it happening.



It's a combination of the historical Sheppard Subway Phase Two proposal from 2001 plus the SLRT extension proposal east from McCowan. Everything south of Agincourt/the 401 is above-grade. I added-in stops at Birchmount and Milner and a terminus beyond Malvern Town Centre at Morningside Hts for good measure.

This may be many decades from completion, but it's a nice blueprint of what's possible. It'd be nice if at least some expansion were to happen in the near term.

I love this, but it will have to be done in phases for sure. The north york section and Fairview Mall to STC for one and the Malvern part for two.

 

[syn]

There's a lot of duplication of routes, so 35km is a bit large. Again, we're only analyzing the subway corridor of about 15 km, quite comparable to the 12 km Dufferin Bus. The 5.5 km subway does better than the Dufferin bus yet is half the length. I think it's fair to say that Sheppard has potential.

It isn't when you're combining the ridership from all the routes to try and make your point.

And of course the subway does better than the Dufferin bus - but the difference is actually quite small, all things considered.

But while I'm rambling, the TTC and Metrolinx really need to build LRT lines along streets like Dufferin, Kipling, Wilson, Jane, York Mills, Finch, Steeles, Victoria Park (if the subway isn't built there), Kennedy, etc. 40K passengers (or even 30K passengers) for 1 bus route is completely unacceptable.

Wait a second - don't people who live at Kipling & Steeles deserve a subway like the people of Scarborough?! Why is a transfer LRT fine for them, but torture for Scarberians?[/QUOTE]

 

[Streety McCarface]

It's 30 km, and a lot of that will not be covered by a Sheppard subway, especially the section west of Downsview Park and east of McCowan. The subway would only cover a distance of about 15 km.

 

[syn]

The entire Bloor-Danforth line is 26km. The kind of ridership you're touting isn't impressive at all for that very long corridor, even when you combine current bus and subway numbers.

I'll also ask the question again - why don't people at Kipling and Steeles deserve a subway too?

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Let's not forget what's coming at Bessarion. The double standard by some anti-Sheppard advocate is truly hilarious because I don't see them making as much noise for the York Region subways which are using the same logic as Sheppard.

Build them and they'll come

In fairness, Toronto voters don't really have control over what York Region and the Province does with the Yonge North subway. The political reality is that York Region is too many ridings for the politicians to ignore. We have control over what happens on Sheppard though.

As for Bessarion, it is great and important that density is coming to the station area, but it doesn't change the fact that even with all those condos, the walk-in traffic is not going to be high enough to push Bessarion as anything beyond one of the more underused stations in the system. Ridership comes from transfers, not from walk-in traffic. It also doesn't change the presence of the 401 highway next door. Many people buying condos here are going to be driving too, and mode share along the Sheppard subway indicates this.

 

[Streety McCarface]

As for Bessarion, it is great and important that density is coming to the station area, but it doesn't change the fact that even with all those condos, the walk-in traffic is not going to be high enough to push Bessarion as anything beyond one of the more underused stations in the system. Ridership comes from transfers, not from walk-in traffic. It also doesn't change the presence of the 401 highway next door. Many people buying condos here are going to be driving too, and mode share along the Sheppard subway indicates this.

Let's be fair to the poor old Bessarion, the station itself cost 35 million dollars (47 mill with inflation). For the ~3000 daily users, that's a 15,700$ investment per passenger over its 60-100 year lifespan. Compare this to York University, a station that will serve let's say 15,000 PPD (classes are only 8 months of the year during weekdays and with heavy variability. This is an average throughout the year), and cost around 200,000,000$, that station's cost per permanent passenger is 13,333$. Even worse, HWY 407: a station that will be lucky if it sees 2000 passengers per day. Costing around 300,0000,000$, the cost per passenger is 150,000$. It is too early to judge the Spadina extension, however, I think it's fair to say that Bessarion's return on investment is quite sound, given it's potential to further grow ridership two-fold.

 

[UD2]

Bessarion was a station built to incent development in the area. The property taxes of collected from the resulting condo towers more than offset the cost of that station in the long run.

It just look bad now. But as mentioned above, its not a large investment in the grand scheme by any means.

 

[BurlOak]

Bessarion was a station built to incent development in the area. The property taxes of collected from the resulting condo towers more than offset the cost of that station in the long run.

It just look bad now. But as mentioned above, its not a large investment in the grand scheme by any means.

I'm reminded of the underground stop on the Eglinton line at Leslie.
When we went through the charade on the ECLRT*, it was stated that an underground station at Leslie would cost $60M. This would have allowed the ECLRT to be fully grade-separated to Don Mills, which would be essential if the DRL where to be built. Obviously, those with power at the time had not vision of the DRL ever being built.

* - the debacle started with Metrolinx stating that the ECLRT portal could not be built on the west bank of the West Don River due to geotechnical conditions. They thus did not even consider an at-grade, south-side alignment. They then said it would cost nothing to eliminate the Leslie stop and tunnel directly to Don Mills. They stated that an underground Leslie station would cost $60M. They then reverted to the portal on the west bank of the West Don - even thought they said earlier it was not possible. They put the Leslie stop in the median, showing they have no intention of planning for a DRL.

 

[Hopkins123]

Bessarion was a station built to incent development in the area. The property taxes of collected from the resulting condo towers more than offset the cost of that station in the long run.

It just look bad now. But as mentioned above, its not a large investment in the grand scheme by any means.

Bessarion won't be any less of a success than Old Mill or High Park, two stations which are ~ 80% reliant on residential condos/apartment buildings for daily alightings.

 

[syn]

Bessarion was a station built to incent development in the area. The property taxes of collected from the resulting condo towers more than offset the cost of that station in the long run.

It just look bad now. But as mentioned above, its not a large investment in the grand scheme by any means.

Sheppard opened 16 years ago. When do they plan on leveling all the single family homes in the area for condos?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/B...7bbb4fe5de1de5!8m2!3d43.7691847!4d-79.3766875

Bessarion is exhibit A for why the Sheppard Line was completely necessary. This is not an environment that needs a subway.

It's an example we should learn from, a mistake not to be repeated.

People can bring up Old Mill all they'd like, but it's sandwiched between two very heavily used stations in Jane and Royal York.