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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
You need continuous midrises on Sheppard and new dense side streets.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
drum118 is correct.
It's Downtown Induced Demand Line.
No, that't not an excuse to avoid it. We still need to build it.
Yes, it's okay to keep calling it Relief Line to sell it.
Better induced demand on a new subway line than a brand new 8-lane expressway.
It'll keep the transit-building momentum, and may yet accelerate DRL-Long / DRL-West. And extra trainsets for Yonge (1min50sec headways with new CBTC system).
Cobra
Senior Member
Speaking of Bessarion Subway Station
Work Begins on Namesake Park in Concord Park Place
I think DRL Long being built will be a HUGE incentive for condo dwellers with cars to leave them at home and use the Don Mills Subway to downtown. As of now, the Sheppard Line is convenient, but the nightmare that has become the Yonge Line is not a secret for anyone. At least if it went to Sheppard West, but even then...
I'm for building everything else and then do something on Sheppard later. It's just as idiotic to here people wanting to use today's limited funds to build an LRT that not many wants in that area. And for what??? Dumped more people on the Yonge Line while Relief Long still doesn't exist???
Just use those funds on Relief Long... Once the bus routes ridership increases due to Relief Long making the trips to downtown faster and more comfortable then revisiting Sheppard might make sense. By then, Sheppard Avenue from Allen Road to at least Kennedy will be a much denser corridor and the ridership might make sense to finish the line. Sorry, but it's a fact that LRT just doesn't draw as many potential riders as subway. Might as well leave Sheppard for when it's time.
Toronto has to stop half assing transit, it's getting really old.
Work Begins on Namesake Park in Concord Park Place
I think DRL Long being built will be a HUGE incentive for condo dwellers with cars to leave them at home and use the Don Mills Subway to downtown. As of now, the Sheppard Line is convenient, but the nightmare that has become the Yonge Line is not a secret for anyone. At least if it went to Sheppard West, but even then...
I'm for building everything else and then do something on Sheppard later. It's just as idiotic to here people wanting to use today's limited funds to build an LRT that not many wants in that area. And for what??? Dumped more people on the Yonge Line while Relief Long still doesn't exist???
Just use those funds on Relief Long... Once the bus routes ridership increases due to Relief Long making the trips to downtown faster and more comfortable then revisiting Sheppard might make sense. By then, Sheppard Avenue from Allen Road to at least Kennedy will be a much denser corridor and the ridership might make sense to finish the line. Sorry, but it's a fact that LRT just doesn't draw as many potential riders as subway. Might as well leave Sheppard for when it's time.
Toronto has to stop half assing transit, it's getting really old.
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Streety McCarface
Senior Member
People don't seem to realize it, but the Sheppard line will actually be a huge benefit once DRL long is open due to the fact that it can shuttle people from North York and York Region (especially if it's extended to sheppard west) to the DRL. This is actually very important because there are people on all three corridors that work along each other.
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
Then there’s the Crosstown with the Sunnybrook Park Stop on the surface at Leslie St, requiring 2 portals resulting in not having a grade separated line from Laird to Science Centre. While those living on Sheppard Line will have great access to the Yonge and Don Mills subways, those on Eglinton have it worse (assuming no 100% aggressive signal priority is given the the LRT at the Leslie intersection).
Now if the Relief Line North does take Alignment 5 along Victoria Park, the Sheppard Line MUST be extended as a subway. If there is no suggestion to not build the Sheppard East LRT underground from Don Mills to Commerce and above ground in median from Commerce to STC/Malvern/Morningside to save costs, repeating the Science Centre situation, I’m going to be mad.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
I can accept a surface LRT after Victoria Park or even don mills, but why bring it to the centre of the road at Leslie?Then there’s the Crosstown with the Sunnybrook Park Stop on the surface at Leslie St, requiring 2 portals resulting in not having a grade separated line from Laird to Science Centre. While those living on Sheppard Line will have great access to the Yonge and Don Mills subways, those on Eglinton have it worse (assuming no 100% aggressive signal priority is given the the LRT at the Leslie intersection).
Now if the Relief Line North does take Alignment 5 along Victoria Park, the Sheppard Line MUST be extended as a subway. If there is no suggestion to not build the Sheppard East LRT underground from Don Mills to Commerce and above ground in median from Commerce to STC/Malvern/Morningside to save costs, repeating the Science Centre situation, I’m going to be mad.
11th
Senior Member
Same development = same amount of automobile traffic on surrounding arterials. Along with an in-median LRT? (I am assuming they would be dumb enough to not grade-separate at Bayview, Leslie, Don Mills).
Hopkins123
Senior Member
I just wish people would stop looking at the subway system as individual lines and start looking at it as one connective network. It shouldn't matter if one line carries more passengers per peak hour than another, that doesn't dismiss the value of other parts of the network. The Sheppard Subway of today could quadruple in ridership if enough north-south feeder bus routes are interfaced with further expansions. It's the myopic viewpoint that subways should only be built servicing downtown in the future that's bringing things to a head.
JSF-1
Active Member
You could also say its the myopic view that Subways need to be built into the suburbs that is bringing things to a head. The fact is we have been having problems with moving people downtown since the 1980's yet what has been done about it? The last Subway station to open downtown was in 1966. What part of Toronto has seen the greatest growth since then? What part of Toronto will continue to see massive growth in the future? Growth may come to other areas of Toronto but it is still decades away yet the growth downtown already exists and has for a decade now, yet we are nowhere near fixing it, while still talking about expanding out to other areas. I would like to believe nowhere else in the world takes such an ass backwards approach to transit planning.
OneCity
Senior Member
The lack of a long term funding plan has fueled the desire for myopic views and growth vs. relief debates to no where, Its now come to an ugly head, that is possibly on the verge of getting back on some form of a track to move forward. The most expensive part of transit is not building. Long term connecting the subway system to the Suburban growth nodes is the right the decision, but this cant be an either or against relief of the Core. It has to be built together and with a proper funding model after the current phase moves forward. Anything else will cause further infighting, inflate long term costs and inevitably more delays.
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JSF-1
Active Member
Well having everything done together is fine and all if we have a way to pay for it. Toronto and Ontario aren't exactly swimming in cash (well we could be but nobody wants to fill the pool so to speak). A full DRL along from Ossington to Don Mills can easily hit $10 Billion and that's just one line. Now add in things like the Yonge Extension, SSE, Sheppard Line, and RER and you can see why things have become so myopic and why I and many others have such a pessimistic view towards these plans. I think we are at a point where we have such a backlog of projects, and so little money to work with that there is a legitimate priority scale to these projects, and of all I think the DRL and RER are the highest since they will have the biggest net benefits to the entire GTHA.
OneCity
Senior Member
We have no funding because a plan was never developed. That has to change going forward. The DRL long will be far far more than $10B and shaving money by cutting corners on other lines won't save much for relief in the long run even if the people supported transfer plans before their Core area. They won't support that and also wont easily support Downtown relief if their Core is not respected. If a solid growth and relief plan can be agreed upon by the majority then voices can be somewhat united to fight for funding and a long term plan. Infighting will only delay the inevitable and cost us all more in the long run.
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JSF-1
Active Member
Well if we really are wanting to get everyone on the same page then I think it may be time to take the LA approach to transit planning. Just throwing everything together and either it all gets built or none of it does. That's how LA was able to take their cities transit from non-existent to the fifth largest in North America in just over 20 years (and will easily surpass Toronto in the next 20 or so). Its essentially holding a gun to everyone's head. They one-uped themselves with Measure M by throwing drivers in the mix, by include road/highway projects into the plan basically saying no road work without transit expansion. Its no secret why Measure M passed a referendum with something like a 76% majority. Also all the projects are fully costed and have mechanisms to pay for them included. I think if we want to truly get transit expansion in the GTHA moving than the cities, metrolinx, and Province will need to adopt this method.
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OneCity
Senior Member
Its the only way. We are seeing far too many "Us vs. Them" political opportunities fueled from the neglect and lack of a sustainable funding plan. This is why I give Tory alot of credit for acknowledging all modes, technologies and atleast attempting to work with residents concerns from all walks of life in the City. Its atleast a step in the right direction, but theres a long way to go at all levels to prevent further paralysis.