Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Hopkins123]

And what is the density of this centre?

The 29 Dufferin has about almost as many riders as the Sheppard East and West buses combined (and it's a shorter route too).

There is no justification for a subway on Sheppard. After the SSE, RER and Eglinton Crosstown, we need to explore improving transit on the west side of the city.

The steep grades involved make providing mass transit along Dufferin difficult and it's already very adjacent to the Spadina Line north of St Clair. Once Fairbank Stn opens, #29 riders will have alternatives to heading all the way south to Bloor.

 

[Cobra]

They're tired of Bessarion being at the bottom of the ridership list and demand new additions below it.

Let's not forget what's coming at Bessarion. The double standard by some anti-Sheppard advocate is truly hilarious because I don't see them making as much noise for the York Region subways which are using the same logic as Sheppard.

Build them and they'll come

 

[Cobra]

And what is the density of this centre?

The 29 Dufferin has about almost as many riders as the Sheppard East and West buses combined (and it's a shorter route too).

There is no justification for a subway on Sheppard. After the SSE, RER and Eglinton Crosstown, we need to explore improving transit on the west side of the city.

A tunnel under the 404 is planned for the LRT east of Don Mills. Larger tunnels would be required than subway tunnels, are you of the opinion that it should be LRT regardless going to Consumers?

If yes, explain your logic

 

[W. K. Lis]

If the Sheppard East Subway were joined in holy matrimony with the Relief Line North, the Line 4 station (and especially Bessarion Station) should see an increase since the passengers wouldn't need to transfer to get downtown (around Queen between University & Yonge).

 

[Streety McCarface]

And what is the density of this centre?

The 29 Dufferin has about almost as many riders as the Sheppard East and West buses combined (and it's a shorter route too).

There is no justification for a subway on Sheppard. After the SSE, RER and Eglinton Crosstown, we need to explore improving transit on the west side of the city.

Throw in the Sheppard subway and the Dufferin numbers go to the trash. Also, I believe there's a proposal to build a subway or LRT on Dufferin as part of Relief Line West.

West Side Projects: RER, Eglington Crosstown, Eglinton West, Finch West LRT, Jane LRT, and recently they had the TYSSE and I think it's fair to say that the Airport Transit Hub can be considered a transit improvement.

There are also ideas of LRT lines on Kipling, Islington, Bloor West subway extensions,

The line physically can't get to 15K. It's capacity by the TTC service standards is 7500 passengers per hour/direction. At crush load it's 11,000.

A Bessarion bus route would be interesting. I've always wondered why the TTC doesn't have any service between Don Mills, Finch, Bayview and Sheppard other than the 51 bus. If the 78 bus is justifiable, a route going up Burbank and Page would be justifiable too.

I was referring to total passengers per kilometer per day. Currently, it's sitting at around 10K. I don't think Passenger's Per Hour Per Direction is the best way of measuring demands since it takes in total usage for an hour, meaning you can never get a fully accurate rate at which usage is occurring (in other words, it's difficult to measure the true travel patterns of people. I'd argue that even if there are 1 or two times of the day where 2-3 full trains are passing passengers, that it's safe to justify higher order transit. No one wants to wait 15-20 minutes for a train to come. This doesn't happen regularly on sheppard, but the analysis needs to be conducted for other lines).

 

[44 North]

What is the point of contention here? It's undeniable that the Consumers Business Park is the second largest employment centre in the City; the VP, Warden and Kennedy buses are busy and well used through the Sheppard corridor and that grade-separated transit east from the Town Centre has long been proposed to Malvern via Centennial College.

These are some of the reasons why I'd like to see a new proposal for extending Sheppard east, not to mention that we'll have Line 3's ROW to use. But I'd only be open to the idea if the TTC considers an alternative to a 6-car TR. Waaay too big. 4-car max. Hell even 2 or 3-car could get the job done for this millennium. With automated trains running ever 2min or 90sec the capacity offered would still be bigger than today, and its service would obviously be more attractive. I know the savings for building shorter/smaller stations are there, we just gotta have TTC present them.

We still have big fish to fry in terms of transit projects, and any Sheppard solution should certainly be tied in with whatever RLN comes to be which is far off. But still we should at least have an option that isn't the notoriously high-priced and overbuilt proposals like seen with Sheppard before.

The line physically can't get to 15K. It's capacity by the TTC service standards is 7500 passengers per hour/direction. At crush load it's 11,000.

Not sure if that's accurate. A current service standard doesn't mean it's physically incapable. Couldn't they simply increase the frequency.

 

[Streety McCarface]

These are some of the reasons why I'd like to see a new proposal for extending Sheppard east, not to mention that we'll have Line 3's ROW to use. But I'd only be open to the idea if the TTC considers an alternative to a 6-car TR. Waaay too big. 4-car max. Hell even 2 or 3-car could get the job done for this millennium. With automated trains running ever 2min or 90sec the capacity offered would still be bigger than today, and its service would obviously be more attractive. I know the savings for building shorter/smaller stations are there, we just gotta have TTC present them.

We still have big fish to fry in terms of transit projects, and any Sheppard solution should certainly be tied in with whatever RLN comes to be which is far off. But still we should at least have an option that isn't the notoriously high-priced and overbuilt proposals like seen with Sheppard before.



Not sure if that's accurate. A current service standard doesn't mean it's physically incapable. Couldn't they simply increase the frequency.

They should at least build with 6 car trains in mind with the potential for expansion if necessary. I wish they did that with the yonge line but for 8 car trains.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Does anyone know or have plans for what the TTC would have done if the centre platform at Sheppard-Yonge was actually used for revenue service? Logical, there would be a connection to the overpass at the west of the station that connects to all 3 platforms, but what else?

 

[syn]

Throw in the Sheppard subway and the Dufferin numbers go to the trash. Also, I believe there's a proposal to build a subway or LRT on Dufferin as part of Relief Line West.

West Side Projects: RER, Eglington Crosstown, Eglinton West, Finch West LRT, Jane LRT, and recently they had the TYSSE and I think it's fair to say that the Airport Transit Hub can be considered a transit improvement.

There are also ideas of LRT lines on Kipling, Islington, Bloor West subway extensions,

Not really.

The Sheppard West bus (with no subway), the route length of which is the same as the 29 Dufferin us, carries only 19,200 riders (2014 stats). That pales in comparison to the 44,000 carried on 29 Dufferin.

The Sheppard East might seem impressive, but it's also about 22km long - 29,000 on route that long, even when combined with the subway ridership, isn't very impressive at all.

 

[JSF-1]

Does anyone know or have plans for what the TTC would have done if the centre platform at Sheppard-Yonge was actually used for revenue service? Logical, there would be a connection to the overpass at the west of the station that connects to all 3 platforms, but what else?

I can't find anything on it, I did however find a little tidbit about how at the Yonge level Platforms there is space for 2 side platforms to be added (exactly like the Sheppard Line platforms making it a 3 platform station).

 

[syn]

A tunnel under the 404 is planned for the LRT east of Don Mills. Larger tunnels would be required than subway tunnels, are you of the opinion that it should be LRT regardless going to Consumers?

If yes, explain your logic

Yes. There is not enough ridership along Sheppard to justify a subway.

Let's not forget what's coming at Bessarion. The double standard by some anti-Sheppard advocate is truly hilarious because I don't see them making as much noise for the York Region subways which are using the same logic as Sheppard.

Build them and they'll come

They will?

You do realize there would need to be plenty of other projects of this magnitude along the corridor to justify a subway, don't you?

 

[Johnny Au]

It is time the 115 Silver Hills bus goes to Bessarion station (and York Mills station as well) via a bus/pedestrian/cyclist-only tunnel under the 401.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Not really.

The Sheppard West bus (with no subway), the route length of which is the same as the 29 Dufferin us, carries only 19,200 riders (2014 stats). That pales in comparison to the 44,000 carried on 29 Dufferin.

The Sheppard East might seem impressive, but it's also about 22km long - 29,000 on route that long, even when combined with the subway ridership, isn't very impressive at all.

There's also Sheppard West, and the Scarborough Rocket. Throw those two in, and ridership outside the subway reaches about 56K PPD, more than the subway. When you also consider that a subway extension would just about double existing bus ridership (as it did with the original sheppard subway due to the improved connections with cross routes like the Leslie bus), there seems to be a fair initial business case for it. All in all, the 15km final subway (Sheppard West to STC) would have an estimated ridership of about 200K PPD if densification is to occur along the route. It's not huge, but certainly not horrible. It's comparable to that of the Bloor danforth subway (Which is twice as long and carries about 500K passengers per day (Less recently, it was closer to 450K PPD. Ridership along that line has skyrocketed in recent years). There's a business case for the corridor. Not now, but certainly after Eglinton and the Relief Line.

 

[JSF-1]

Does anyone know or have plans for what the TTC would have done if the centre platform at Sheppard-Yonge was actually used for revenue service? Logical, there would be a connection to the overpass at the west of the station that connects to all 3 platforms, but what else?

Just to expand on my previous quote:
"Future plans called for the YONGE platforms to be similarly configured, and space was built for these platforms on either side of the YONGE line. These new side-platforms on the YONGE line only extend the width and the length of the SHEPPARD platforms above, and have been covered over. The remaining space will have to be hollowed out, as was done at Union station, when ridership warrants."

-Transit Toronto

 

[Streety McCarface]

Yes. There is not enough ridership along Sheppard to justify a subway.

They will?

You do realize there would need to be plenty of other projects of this magnitude along the corridor to justify a subway, don't you?

Not now certainly, but again, it depends on your definition of what is enough and how you build the subway. This city needs to rid its fear of elevated lines.

Bayview Village (Bayview)? Concord Park Place (Bessarion/Leslie)? Emerald City (Don Mills)? North York Centre (Yonge/Willowdale)? Every single station area is getting or has a development.