Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[syn]

There's also Sheppard West, and the Scarborough Rocket. Throw those two in, and ridership outside the subway reaches about 56K PPD, more than the subway. When you also consider that a subway extension would just about double existing bus ridership (as it did with the original sheppard subway due to the improved connections with cross routes like the Leslie bus), there seems to be a fair initial business case for it. All in all, the 15km final subway (Sheppard West to STC) would have an estimated ridership of about 200K PPD if densification is to occur along the route. It's not huge, but certainly not horrible. It's comparable to that of the Bloor danforth subway (Which is twice as long and carries about 500K passengers per day (Less recently, it was closer to 450K PPD. Ridership along that line has skyrocketed in recent years). There's a business case for the corridor. Not now, but certainly after Eglinton and the Relief Line.

Again, not terribly impressive - that's three independent routes on Sheppard covering about 35km - and the ridership is only 12,000 higher than the 11km 29 Dufferin. And that's just one bus route from one Bloor/Danforth subway station, with another station about 600m west and another less than 800m east.

 

[Hopkins123]

Not now certainly, but again, it depends on your definition of what is enough and how you build the subway. This city needs to rid its fear of elevated lines.

Bayview Village (Bayview)? Concord Park Place (Bessarion/Leslie)? Emerald City (Don Mills)? North York Centre (Yonge/Willowdale)? Every single station area is getting or has a development.

Furthermore, imagine the lack of development that otherwise would have occurred had the City/Province not invested in a subway along the Sheppard corridor between Yonge and Don Mills. The subway truly was a catalyst for growth. Vaughan's got it right, so does Richmond Hill. Only in Toronto do we want to force everyone to cram into one downtown core and not develop other parts of our jurisdiction.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Again, not terribly impressive - that's three independent routes on Sheppard covering about 35km - and the ridership is only 12,000 higher than the 11km 29 Dufferin. And that's just one bus route from one Bloor/Danforth subway station, with another station about 600m west and another less than 800m east.

There's a lot of duplication of routes, so 35km is a bit large. Again, we're only analyzing the subway corridor of about 15 km, quite comparable to the 12 km Dufferin Bus. The 5.5 km subway does better than the Dufferin bus yet is half the length. I think it's fair to say that Sheppard has potential.

But while I'm rambling, the TTC and Metrolinx really need to build LRT lines along streets like Dufferin, Kipling, Wilson, Jane, York Mills, Finch, Steeles, Victoria Park (if the subway isn't built there), Kennedy, etc. 40K passengers (or even 30K passengers) for 1 bus route is completely unacceptable.

 

[JSF-1]

Well I mean Vaughan and Richmond Hill have the benefit of being independent Cities from eachother. I'm really hard pressed to find any Single-Tier City with multiple thriving downtown cores.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Well I mean Vaughan and Richmond Hill have the benefit of being independent Cities from eachother. I'm really hard pressed to find any Single-Tier City with multiple thriving downtown cores.

New York, London, Tokyo, Vancouver?

 

[JSF-1]

Tokyo isn't a single city, it is actually 26 separate cities (amongst other things) with the Tokyo Metropolitan Government overseeing it (The City of Tokyo was broken up in 1957 by the Federal Government and established as a "Metropolitan Prefecture". London is similar it is actually 32 Boroughs organized by the Greater London Council (London was broken up by Thatcher). Vancouver is actually just 1 of 23 Cities and towns that make up Metro Vancouver. New York is the only single tier city and I wouldn't say any of its areas compare in the slightest to Manhattan.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Tokyo isn't a single city, it is actually 26 separate cities (amongst other things) with the Tokyo Metropolitan Government overseeing it. London is similar it is actually 32 Boroughs organized by the Greater London Council. Vancouver is actually just 1 of 23 Cities and towns that make up Metro Vancouver. New York is the only single tier city and I wouldn't say any of its areas compare in the slightest to Manhattan.

One could make a similar argument for Metro Toronto, where you have downtown, Midtown (York), Uptown (North York), Scarborough, Etobicoke, Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham, Brampton, Pickering, Mississauga, etc. encompassing Metro Toronto.

For New York, all the boroughs have their central areas (ie Jamacia Queens, Concourse Bronx, Coney Island Brooklyn, etc) all of which have huge employment centres and dense living areas.

 

[JSF-1]

This type of planning works best when all the parts that make it up are independent but organized (as seen with Tokyo, London, Vancouver). While NYC does have its "sub-centres" Manhattan is still the de-facto downtown that development flocks to. Which is why in my opinion Toronto will remain hamstrung as it is as long as the City remains the way it is. To me the first step to rejuvenating places like Scarborough and Etobicoke is to split Toronto up. This can only happen though if the suburbs are the ones to push for it (like what happened in Montreal).

 

[Hopkins123]

My issue is how are they going to get the subway across the 401 @Hopkins123 @OneCity . I feel Sheppard should be above ground, especially if it's going to be a loop. They would also have to increase frequency once it is built.

I thought it was the second largest employment area outside of Downtown Toronto, meaning it's the third largest in the city. The second being the Airport Area. But I do agree that the subway should be extended.

The thing that was discussed before was whether or not the Sheppard East Subway Extension should cross Highway 401 twice, once east of Agincourt and once east of Centennial College (3 times if you count the SSE to Sheppard/McCowan). If the SESE just stays on Sheppard, then it would only have to cross Highway 401 once (SSE at Highway 401/McCowan).

This is how I envision it happening.



It's a combination of the historical Sheppard Subway Phase Two proposal from 2001 plus the SLRT extension proposal east from McCowan. Everything south of Agincourt/the 401 is above-grade. I added-in stops at Birchmount and Milner and a terminus beyond Malvern Town Centre at Morningside Hts for good measure.

This may be many decades from completion, but it's a nice blueprint of what's possible. It'd be nice if at least some expansion were to happen in the near term.

 

[Irishmonk]

Furthermore, imagine the lack of development that otherwise would have occurred had the City/Province not invested in a subway along the Sheppard corridor between Yonge and Don Mills. The subway truly was a catalyst for growth. Vaughan's got it right, so does Richmond Hill. Only in Toronto do we want to force everyone to cram into one downtown core and not develop other parts of our jurisdiction.

Subways should not be used as a tool for social engineering. They should be used where there is current demand. Period.

 

[APTA-2048]

One could make a similar argument for Metro Toronto, where you have downtown, Midtown (York), Uptown (North York), Scarborough, Etobicoke, Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham, Brampton, Pickering, Mississauga, etc. encompassing Metro Toronto.

Metro Toronto no longer exists. Also, Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham, Brampton, Pickering, Mississauga were never part of Metro Toronto.

 

[44 North]

They should at least build with 6 car trains in mind with the potential for expansion if necessary. I wish they did that with the yonge line but for 8 car trains.

meh, no way. I think most are in agreement that Sheppard was/is way overbuilt. Not even the most inflated projections could justify 6-car. Line 1 goes into the core, Line 2 skirts it. Line 4's focal point is North York Centre, which most certainly isn't equivalent to downtown Toronto nor ever will be. Also don't buy the argument that 'Yonge should've been built for 8-car'. The initial leg almost bankrupted the city, so it's a bit much to say that it should've been built bigger. Or that Y/B should've been built as a mammoth interchange, which I've also seen argued. Never would've happened. What *should've* happened is the building of parallel lines into the core like other major cities do.

If Sheppard were say to be converted to some far-reaching GO bypass mainline-type of system, maybe I could see the justification for going 6-car. But even then such long stations seem excessive. 100m stations are more than enough.

 

[hw621]

Metro Toronto no longer exists. Also, Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham, Brampton, Pickering, Mississauga were never part of Metro Toronto.

GTA

 

[Rainforest]

It seems most practical to aim for conversion, but not for conversion to low-floor LRT.

Some kind of more advanced system, likely high-floor, with relatively wide stop spacing, but still utilizing surface space to limit the construction costs, would be most appealing.

If that's not acceptable, then we should postpone any decisions for this corridor, and just enhance the express bus service. And, give priority to the Relief Line, Yonge North Subway, and light rail lines in other corridors.

 

[amnesiajune]

The 5.5 km subway does better than the Dufferin bus yet is half the length. I think it's fair to say that Sheppard has potential.

It does better than any surface route. The Sheppard subway's peak hour/direction ridership is nearly 5,000 people. The King streetcar is the busiest surface route and it's peak hour ridership in both directions is lower than that.