Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[OneCity]

Youre avoiding what I am saying. Why is Ford so adamant on a third station at Sheppard and McCowan then? Why would you build a station out there and have a subway line on Sheppard and have it completely avoid that station?

Seems awfully weird to spend all that money and only have the Sheppard Line completely avoid a station on Sheppard.

They would have drawn the map showing the Sheppard Line dip down to STC if that was there intent. Its not.

Also depends if they plan on extending further east. If the end of the line is it at McCowan then Conservatives can continue to sell the future extension to Seaton Pickering for a few decades until the airport is finalized.

 

[Rainforest]

Two full-fledged subway lines to the area seem to be an overkill, whether Sheppard subway terminates at STC or stays north of 401.

On the other hand, if Sheppard subway can be converted to same light-metro technology as proposed for Ontario Line, and extended for 30-40% less per km than a full-fledged subway .. then it begins to make sense.

Still not the top transit priority, but getting closer to 2030 and assuming that the plans currently on the table succeed for the most part, a rapid transit line across the top of the city might be exactly what's needed.

 

[OneCity]

Two full-fledged subway lines to the area seem to be an overkill, whether Sheppard subway terminates at STC or stays north of 401.

On the other hand, if Sheppard subway can be converted to same light-metro technology as proposed for Ontario Line, and extended for 30-40% less per km than a full-fledged subway .. then it begins to make sense.

Still not the top transit priority, but getting closer to 2030 and assuming that the plans currently on the table succeed for the most part, a rapid transit line across the top of the city might be exactly what's needed.

Given they are not starting the design for the Ontario line from Eglinton to Sheppard at the same time as Sheppard to McCowan its safe to assume its an extension of the existing Sheppard subway for now.

 

[citydata]

Is it likely that the new improved Sheppard line could eventually take the route of the Sheppard let past McCowan to u of t Scarborough or go up Nielson on Malvern town centre? How about going further up McCowan to Woodside Square to link up with whatever future line comes on Finch east?

 

[OneCity]

Is it likely that the new improved Sheppard line could eventually take the route of the Sheppard let past McCowan to u of t Scarborough or go up Nielson on Malvern town centre? How about going further up McCowan to Woodside Square to link up with whatever future line comes on Finch east?

For now its just to McCowan. Its possible the next phase after will go up thru Malvern Town Centre into towards Pickering but i doubt it would dip down to UTSC. In any case that extension of an extension is another lifetime away no matter what is proposed. If the EELRT can get traction from the City when it finishes design it can provide a small lifeline to Malvern for a boost in between that long duration.

As for UTSC it could already be covered quite well with the subway extension and finishing the following:

*The Durham-Scarborough BRT along Ellesmere will connect the SSE rider to UTSC and Durham riders to UTSC
*The EELRT will connect Malvern to UTSC

My preference would be extending the Sheppard subway to end at Markham/Progress (McCowan is OK too) and then add a future Scarborough City Centre LRT which runs thru Markham/Progress and Malvern town Centre to join the EELRT or continue to the Pickering airport lands.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Should go to Rouge Hill to provide an uptown rapid transit line, and an uptown option for Durham.

 

[Rainforest]

Given they are not starting the design for the Ontario line from Eglinton to Sheppard at the same time as Sheppard to McCowan its safe to assume its an extension of the existing Sheppard subway for now.

Right now, Sheppard extension is not in the plan or in the budget. If it comes in 10 years, it might come together with the Ontario Line's extension to Sheppard (the latter can be done at a very reasonable price).

Even if Ontario Line is not extended, Sheppard still can be converted to same technology as Ontario Line. They will have to use separate yards, but still can utilize some savings from common train and equipment orders.

 

[Rainforest]

Is it likely that the new improved Sheppard line could eventually take the route of the Sheppard let past McCowan to u of t Scarborough or go up Nielson on Malvern town centre? How about going further up McCowan to Woodside Square to link up with whatever future line comes on Finch east?

There are multiple options for extending this line both east and west, and perhaps even branching it. Any extensions will be easier to fund if the per-km cost is reduced somewhat, and that suggests switching to a lighter subway technology.

 

[OneCity]

Right now, Sheppard extension is not in the plan or in the budget. If it comes in 10 years, it might come together with the Ontario Line's extension to Sheppard (the latter can be done at a very reasonable price).

Even if Ontario Line is not extended, Sheppard still can be converted to same technology as Ontario Line. They will have to use separate yards, but still can utilize some savings from common train and equipment orders.

This line is absolutely in the budget.

Some media have misled in saying the line is not included based on not allocating construction capital when doing so would be completely unreasonable to do at this preliminary stage to begin with.

The conceptual/exploratory design studies will begin this year. They should at least look at the Ontario line extension in this study but considering it is clearly not the focal point as shown on the map i would believe the extension of Sheppard is the preference for now

Whatever alignment and connection are chosen to move forward in the next couple years will have a chance of beginning construction in 10 years. Politically i dont seen this line being overturned at any time in the next decade now that its getting under way as both Liberals and Conservatives are very big proponents.

 

[Rainforest]

This line is absolutely in the budget.

Some media have misled in saying the line is not included based on not allocating construction capital. Which would be completely unreasonable to do at this preliminary stage to begin with.

The conceptual/exploratory design studies will begin this year. They should at least look at the Ontario line extension in this study but considering it is clearly not the focal point as shown on the Map i would believe the extension of Sheppard is the preference for now Whatever they alignment and connection are chosen to move forward in the next couple years will have a chance of beginning construction in 10 years.

Perhaps this is the case.

Even if they begin designing a Sheppard extension right now, it is still possible, and might be advisable, to look at a lighter subway technology to reduce the cost. The massive Bloor subway obviously can't be converted to another technology for the sake of a relatively short SSE extension; it has to be extended using same type of trains. In contrast, "extensions" of the Sheppard subway might eventually become several times longer than the currently existing section. If the conversion of Sheppard does not cost too much, saves a lot of money on extensions, and we don't anticipate hitting capacity limits, then perhaps conversion is the way to go.

We know that the cost of converting Sheppard to low-floor LRT is high, was something like $760 million 10 years ago, probably even more than that in today's prices. But, low-floor LRT is as incompatible with high-floor subway as it gets.

If Sheppard subway was to be converted to lighter subway trains, still high-floor with third rail but with a smaller profile, the conversion cost would likely be a lot lower. At least, this is worth looking at.

 

[OneCity]

Perhaps this is the case.

Even if they begin designing a Sheppard extension right now, it is still possible, and might be advisable, to look at a lighter subway technology to reduce the cost. The massive Bloor subway obviously can't be converted to another technology for the sake of a relatively short SSE extension; it has to be extended using same type of trains. In contrast, "extensions" of the Sheppard subway might eventually become several times longer than the currently existing section. If the conversion of Sheppard does not cost too much, saves a lot of money on extensions, and we don't anticipate hitting capacity limits, then perhaps conversion is the way to go.

We know that the cost of converting Sheppard to low-floor LRT is high, was something like $760 million 10 years ago, probably even more than that in today's prices. But, low-floor LRT is as incompatible with high-floor subway as it gets.

If Sheppard subway was to be converted to lighter subway trains, still high-floor with third rail but with a smaller profile, the conversion cost would likely be a lot lower. At least, this is worth looking at.

This is the case. Exploratory or conceptual design is exactly that. They will explore all options to determine whats best to move forward towards capital cost estimations and a detailed design

 

[dowlingm]

Extending Sheppard west to an interline would be insane for a few reasons, starting with:
1. Where is the connection, given the bend from Sheppard West, and how much disruption does it cause to Line 1 operations given it wasn’t planned for?
2. Running the subway directly west to Jane makes far more economic sense if it is basically predicated on a Downsview Airport redevelopment similar to Unilever, which an interline would swerve more than it would serve.
(Edit: I wouldn’t rule out a slow wye to Line 1 to access Wilson, as was planned for Relief Line, but that assumes the Richmond Hill yard has taken pressure off Wilson)

 

[BurlOak]

Extending Sheppard west to an interline would be insane for a few reasons, starting with:
1. Where is the connection, given the bend from Sheppard West, and how much disruption does it cause to Line 1 operations given it wasn’t planned for?
2. Running the subway directly west to Jane makes far more economic sense if it is basically predicated on a Downsview Airport redevelopment similar to Unilever, which an interline would swerve more than it would serve.
(Edit: I wouldn’t rule out a slow wye to Line 1 to access Wilson, as was planned for Relief Line, but that assumes the Richmond Hill yard has taken pressure off Wilson)

Here is what I came up with a few years ago. At the time, I figured there was no point extending Sheppard west, due to the Downsveiw airport, Black Creek, Oakdale Golf Club and Humber River, all which precluded development.

At rush, it goes.

• 8 minute frequency from Vaughan to Union (and of course around to Finch (Yellow Line).
• 8 minute frequency from Vaughan to Don Mills Station (and farther if it's ever extended east) (Light Blue Line).
• 4 minute frequency from what's now Sheppard West to Union (and of course around to Finch (Red Line).
• 8 minute frequency from Don Mills Station to Sheppard West to Union (and of course around to Finch (Purple Line).
• Result is 4 minute frequency on Sheppard and NW Leg of the Yonge Line (alternating trains going in different directions, AND, 2 minute frequency on the pre-2015 part of the Yonge Line.

In shoulder periods, 1 Red Line train would be dropped and there would be uneven train frequencies on the pre-2015 Yonge Line (every 2 minutes, then 2 minutes, then 4 minutes).
At off peak, the Red Line would cease completely and all lines would have 4 minute frequencies.

All the complex construction is built to the west of Sheppard - essentially in a field. Due to the interlining, there does not need to be an interchange station. The Sheppard West/Dufferin station on the Sheppard Line could be located a bit farther east to help Faywood (maybe Wilson Heights), although I had it close enough that they share the bus bays - and there is an underground connection with Spadina distance transfer just in case. I figure it is easier for the Sheppard Line (the tunnel portion) to pass under the Yonge Line, than to actually have the new station directly under the active Sheppard West station. I took the inspiration for a highway interchange, and only one movement is not grade-separated (the SB to EB interferes with the WB to SB), but that is on a 4 minute frequency - which is nowhere near as hard to handle if you wanted the 2 minute frequency trains making this crossing (similar to the 1960 interlining at Bay Lower).

 

[White Pine]

Interlining makes transit systems harder to navigate, negating some of the advantages of rail. I get it in some circumstances, but not in toronto and certainly not that far north. Also I think it would be an unbelievably bad decision to convert the line to anything with less capacity. Dont forget that Toronto will grow!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Interlining makes transit systems harder to navigate, negating some of the advantages of rail. I get it in some circumstances, but not in toronto and certainly not that far north. Also I think it would be an unbelievably bad decision to convert the line to anything with less capacity. Dont forget that Toronto will grow!

Extending Sheppard west to an interline would be insane for a few reasons, starting with:
1. Where is the connection, given the bend from Sheppard West, and how much disruption does it cause to Line 1 operations given it wasn’t planned for?
2. Running the subway directly west to Jane makes far more economic sense if it is basically predicated on a Downsview Airport redevelopment similar to Unilever, which an interline would swerve more than it would serve.
(Edit: I wouldn’t rule out a slow wye to Line 1 to access Wilson, as was planned for Relief Line, but that assumes the Richmond Hill yard has taken pressure off Wilson)

Key is that the TTC is having issues running from Vaughan to Union. Interlining allows for people in North York and York to get a seat on the subway and allow for western York Region and North York to have access to Scarborough without going to Union or Yonge - Eglinton and vice versa.