Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Streety McCarface]

To add to this NYC also actually shut down a couple of stations because during the platform lengthening years some stations were close enough together that if both were extended to 10 cars they would be practically butting up against each other. This isn't just an NYC only problem, you see this with many old Subway and Rail systems that have expanded train and platform lengths.

I thought that was Chicago...?

New York city has express services in both the suburbs and in Manhattan where stop spacing can exceed 5 miles. In the suburbs, most lines have stop spacing of about every km, maybe a bit more depending on the line/service.

Regardless. New York City is not the only city in the world that has a subway system, and more importantly, they are not the only system that has stop spacing greater than 1 stop per kilometer. Sure, some long tunnels are wasteful, but that doesn't mean having a subway stop every 2 km is wasteful either. A system needs to balance speed of the line with increased service to passengers. A lot of stations sounds great until you actually get on the train and are stopping every 400 meters to pick up 3 people instead of every kilometer and a half to pick up 15.

 

[nfitz]

New York city has express services in both the suburbs and in Manhattan where stop spacing can exceed 5 miles. In the suburbs, most lines have stop spacing of about every km, maybe a bit more depending on the line/service.

The lines I've ridden into the Bronx and Brooklyn seem to have stops a lot closer than every kilometre. Sure, there's some express services that skip stops (though 8 km seems more than I've observed). But I'm not seeing much spacing that's averaging close to one kilometre, other than some rare exceptions - compared to the often 2 km to 3 km spacing you get in Toronto in some placed.

Regardless. New York City is not the only city in the world that has a subway system, and more importantly, they are not the only system that has stop spacing greater than 1 stop per kilomete ...

I think you need to point to where you are thinking here. There is the new multi-billion 1-stop extension 1.4 km extension to Line 7 to Hudson Yards - but there was also a lot of fuss that they deferred the station in the middle on 41st between 9th and 10th Avenue. But generally, I'm not seeing much like that. I don't know Queens particularly well, but measuring on Google Maps ... seems less than a kilometre, even on Line 7.

 

[Streety McCarface]

The lines I've ridden into the Bronx and Brooklyn seem to have stops a lot closer than every kilometre. Sure, there's some express services that skip stops (though 8 km seems more than I've observed). But I'm not seeing much spacing that's averaging close to one kilometre, other than some rare exceptions - compared to the often 2 km to 3 km spacing you get in Toronto in some placed.

I think you need to point to where you are thinking here. There is the new multi-billion 1-stop extension 1.4 km extension to Line 7 to Hudson Yards - but there was also a lot of fuss that they deferred the station in the middle on 41st between 9th and 10th Avenue. But generally, I'm not seeing much like that. I don't know Queens particularly well, but measuring on Google Maps ... seems less than a kilometre, even on Line 7.

5km* that was a dumb mistake. The section on the A train between 59th street and 125th street comes to mind, as well as the section on the 5 between E180th street and 149th street.

It was actually 1.6 miles, so even with a stop in the middle, the distance between stops would be closer to 1.2 km. Regardless, Manhattan is a different environment from the Bronx. I wouldn't be advocating for such large stop spacing in a heavily populated area, but we're talking about North York here, we stop spacing probably doesn't need to be every 800 meters like it does downtown.

 

[nfitz]

It was actually 1.6 miles, so even with a stop in the middle, the distance between stops would be closer to 1.2 km. Regardless, Manhattan is a different environment from the Bronx. I wouldn't be advocating for such large stop spacing in a heavily populated area, but we're talking about North York here, we stop spacing probably doesn't need to be every 800 meters like it does downtown.

Stop spacing is far better than every 800 metres downtown! It averages every 500 metres from Bloor to King on Yonge, and is similar on University. It's even only about every 650 metres from Bloor to St. Clair!

But North York? From Eglinton to Finch is about 8.3 km. That's not every 800 metres! That's every 1,650 metres on average (over a mile)! Honestly, I find the spacing too far apart there. Even the Sheppard line is almost every 1,400 metres on average.

I'm not sure where in the Bronx you see even every 800 metres on average, let alone every mile other than a couple of stops right at the end of the 5 train. The 1, 2, 4, 6, and D all look like about every 600 metres give or take.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

In practice there are cases where a community badly wants an extra station that will serve them, like Oakwood on ECLRT. In such cases, I'd rather honor the community's desire and add the station. On the other hand, if the locals don't want a station (Sheppard / Willowdale), then it shouldn't be forced upon them just because one size must fit all, or because they are too rich and let's stick it to them. Their reluctance allows other riders to travel a bit faster, and saves the transit funding for use elsewhere on the system.

I don't really think it was fair for the Willowdale residents of the late 1990s to condemn all future residents of Willowdale from having a subway station.

 

[Northern Light]

In practice there are cases where a community badly wants an extra station that will serve them, like Oakwood on ECLRT. In such cases, I'd rather honor the community's desire and add the station. On the other hand, if the locals don't want a station (Sheppard / Willowdale), then it shouldn't be forced upon them just because one size must fit all, or because they are too rich and let's stick it to them. Their reluctance allows other riders to travel a bit faster, and saves the transit funding for use elsewhere on the system.

Might I start by modestly suggesting that you have the reason for Willowdale Station opposition wrong.

I don't recall the community being opposed to a station per se; nor do I recall this area would be substantially less likely to use the subway were it at their door step.

What I do recall, is profound opposition to the density that would go with the new station.

The suggestion at the time was only mid-rise construction in the 8-storey range.......but some neighbours hearing this thought the apocalypse was nigh and 'there goes the neighbourhood'.

This was much more a story about people not wanting density, not wanting apartments/condos or especially public housing.....much more than it was about a subway stop.

***

I'll then add, while it is absolutely important to blend the need for efficient service with reasonable journey times; with comparatively local and convenient access..........

Especially when there's a 200M cost to putting in a station.........

But, its every bit as important to consider the cost in foregone property tax if density permissions are lower because a station was omitted.

Its also equally important to consider the cost of retaining local bus service over top of the subway, something that would not be done in the Leslie to Yonge section had Willowdale Station been built.

It also would have shortened the Willowdale bus route itself, likely save deployment of 1 bus in most periods and maybe 2 in AM rush.

Between that, and local Sheppard bus service your looking at annual savings in the millions from having Willowdale Station in place.

That station, both for its increased convenience to locals, and for the additional density created, as well as the foregone bus services would have dramatically improved the financial performance of Line 4.


So its important to weigh more than just journey time or one-time capital cost savings.........

 

[BurlOak]

Might I start by modestly suggesting that you have the reason for Willowdale Station opposition wrong.

I don't recall the community being opposed to a station per se; nor do I recall this area would be substantially less likely to use the subway were it at their door step.

What I do recall, is profound opposition to the density that would go with the new station.

The suggest at the time was only mid-rise construction in the 8-storey range.......but some neighbours hearing this though the apocalypse was nigh and 'there goes the neighbourhood'.

This was much a more a storey about people not wanting density, not wanting apartments/condos or especially public housing.....much more than it was about a subway stop.

***

I'll then add, while it is absolutely important to blend the need for efficient service with reasonable journey times; with comparatively local and convenient access..........

Especially when there's a 200M cost to putting in a station.........

But, its every bit as important to consider the cost in foregone property tax if density permissions are lower because a station was omitted.

Its also equally important to consider the cost of retaining local bus service over top of the subway, something that would not be done in the Leslie to Yonge section had Willowdale Station been built.

It also would have shortened the Willowdale bus route itself, likely save deployment of 1 bus in most periods and maybe 2 in AM rush.

If between that, and local Sheppard bus service your looking at annual savings in the millions from having Willowdale Station in place.

That station, both for its increased convenience to locals, and for the additional density created, as well as the foregone bus services would have dramatically improved the financial performance of Line 4.


So its important to weigh more than just journey time or one-time capital cost savings.........

Back in the day, the station was likely $50M. Maybe $100M in current dollars. Bassarion was $34M.
I think many locals there are renting WWII era houses, with some neighbors going Monster home. I think they realized that all those house would be gone and they couldn't find an alternative in a relatively nice neighborhood. They had to stop the development or they'd be kicked out, and the actual home owners would benefit.

 

[Rainforest]

I don't really think it was fair for the Willowdale residents of the late 1990s to condemn all future residents of Willowdale from having a subway station.

Condemned? Is it such a terrible hardship to take a 1-km bus ride ..

Many residents of the city travel much longer distances by bus every day.

 

[Rainforest]

Might I start by modestly suggesting that you have the reason for Willowdale Station opposition wrong.

I don't recall the community being opposed to a station per se; nor do I recall this area would be substantially less likely to use the subway were it at their door step.

What I do recall, is profound opposition to the density that would go with the new station.

The suggest at the time was only mid-rise construction in the 8-storey range.......but some neighbours hearing this though the apocalypse was nigh and 'there goes the neighbourhood'.

This was much a more a storey about people not wanting density, not wanting apartments/condos or especially public housing.....much more than it was about a subway stop.

I realize that they were opposed to density that comes with the station, rather than the station itself. That doesn't necessarily mean that the station should have been pushed through.

But, its every bit as important to consider the cost in foregone property tax if density permissions are lower because a station was omitted.

Its also equally important to consider the cost of retaining local bus service over top of the subway, something that would not be done in the Leslie to Yonge section had Willowdale Station been built.

It also would have shortened the Willowdale bus route itself, likely save deployment of 1 bus in most periods and maybe 2 in AM rush.

If between that, and local Sheppard bus service your looking at annual savings in the millions from having Willowdale Station in place.

That station, both for its increased convenience to locals, and for the additional density created, as well as the foregone bus services would have dramatically improved the financial performance of Line 4.

So its important to weigh more than just journey time or one-time capital cost savings.........

The potential yearly savings due to the shortened bus routes should be weighted against the yearly cost of maintaining the Willowdale station itself. I'm not sure which costs more.

Regarding the property tax, it would a net loss if the multi-storeys intended for Willowdale weren't built somewhere else. However, Toronto still has plenty of available land, including in transit-friendly locations. Thus, the total volume of development is likely determined by the demand rather than by the land availability.

In other words, people who didn't purchase condos at Willowdale, purchased condos at North York Centre or at Bessarion instead, increasing the total demand at those locations and resulting in roughly same total property tax payable as if the Willowdale station was built.

 

[Hopkins123]

Condemned? Is it such a terrible hardship to take a 1-km bus ride ..

Many residents of the city travel much longer distances by bus every day.

It's a wasted, lost opportunity not to provide direct subway access to locals/residents if the subway line is already in place and running right underneath those neighbourhoods already.

NYC Stn was infilled over a decade after the Yonge Line went to Finch and today boasts almost 30,000 daily alightings. Why in an age where people gripe about the lack of ridership on the Sheppard Line would we not attempt to bolster its usage and usefulness? Status quo only feeds their into their presumptions. More stops and expansion of the total coverage area would only see the ridership go up.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Back in the day, the station was likely $50M. Maybe $100M in current dollars. Bassarion was $34M.
I think many locals there are renting WWII era houses, with some neighbors going Monster home. I think they realized that all those house would be gone and they couldn't find an alternative in a relatively nice neighborhood. They had to stop the development or they'd be kicked out, and the actual home owners would benefit.

Sheppard STUBway line opened 2001, planning was in mid-1990s. Notice, Winter 1995 newsletter didn't included Willowdale Station but Summer 1994 newsletter had "Willowdale Station (future)",... it was already cut by then. Don't ask me why I would keep newsletters for 25 years!!!!

We brought a bungalow in Willowdale in 1990. By 1995, Bungalow on 50' frontage lot would have been around 300-350K, new Monster home (rare & starting) around $550-600K,... relatively affordable compared to today! Back then & now, I'd say about 20-25% of older houses are rentals (compared to 35% of condos in Willowdale now). Renters rarely get involved in community meetings! Homeowners have skins in the game and they'll make themselves heard,... especially the older ones with nothing else better to do!

Back then, most of the houses were occupied by empty nesters with very few kids running around. Demographic was very white, KoreaTownNorth was just a few stores on SpringGarden Ave! And there wasn't a Tehranto! High density development was relatively even between Office tower VS Condo tower,.... until Amalgamation in 1998 then it's basically 60+ Condo tower VS 1 office tower built,.... with more condo tower, came more diversity.

Some folks with older houses, if they move out, they try to keep it to rent out. If they sell it, it'll usually Builder buying it to convert to McMansion. A lot of folks who move out, realize they don't use the subway and thus, they can buy "more house" elsewhere.

In other words, people who didn't purchase condos at Willowdale, purchased condos at North York Centre or at Bessarion instead, increasing the total demand at those locations and resulting in roughly same total property tax payable as if the Willowdale station was built.

Rainforest, you have to remember who pays for Subway,... the Province typically pays the highest percentage, so when then Premier Mike Harris was chopping Sheppard Subway line, they didn't care about property tax revenue for City, Province was cutting their cost,... shortening the subway line, cutting Stations & bare minimum for Stations that actually do get built

 

[M II A II R II K]

They shouldn’t be afraid of a Willowdale station since one has to look at the lack of density that was added around the other new stations after all this time.

 

[Rainforest]

They shouldn’t be afraid of a Willowdale station since one has to look at the lack of density that was added around the other new stations after all this time.

Some density would be added, judging by Bayview and Bessarion.

 

[Rainforest]

It's a wasted, lost opportunity not to provide direct subway access to locals/residents if the subway line is already in place and running right underneath those neighbourhoods already.

NYC Stn was infilled over a decade after the Yonge Line went to Finch and today boasts almost 30,000 daily alightings. Why in an age where people gripe about the lack of ridership on the Sheppard Line would we not attempt to bolster its usage and usefulness? Status quo only feeds their into their presumptions. More stops and expansion of the total coverage area would only see the ridership go up.

I still don't regard the absence of the Willowdale station as a critical mistake; the residents can live without it because other stations are close enough and are reachable by a very short bus ride.

However, you are correct regarding one particular benefit of having the Willowdale station. If it was built, and triggered development, the whole Sheppard subway would get better daily usage counts and would gain better perception by the public.

 

[Streety McCarface]

NYC Stn was infilled over a decade after the Yonge Line went to Finch and today boasts almost 30,000 daily alighting. Why in an age where people gripe about the lack of ridership on the Sheppard Line would we not attempt to bolster its usage and usefulness? Status quo only feeds their into their presumptions. More stops and expansion of the total coverage area would only see the ridership go up.

Just to clarify, it's not 30K alightings, most recent counts indicate a daily station ridership of 25380 PPD, this includes both boardings and alightings. It's hard to say how many are each, but I guarantee that they're not 50|50, there will be some fare dodgers, people only using the station once, etc. However, for the sake of argument, we can assume it is on average a 50|50 split, so the actual number of alightings is closer to 12,700 boardings and 12700 alightings. In other words, about 12,700 individual people actually use the station per day.

However, you are correct regarding one particular benefit of having the Willowdale station. If it was built, and triggered development, the whole Sheppard subway would get better daily usage counts and would gain better perception by the public.

As much as I would have wanted the station to be built, I'm not sure this would have actually been the case. It seems like it would have taken away from Bayview's ridership to an extent, and even if it took away some from Sheppard Yonge, it'd still likely only have a ridership of about 5K PPD. A line with 3 stations having 5K PPD and one with 3K PPD does not seem like good publicity for the line. Bayview, Leslie and Don Mills all have fairly respectable ridership for small stations whereas bessarion is the only true low ball.