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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

BurlOak said:
Not quite.

Imagine if this is in the median.
  • Just east of Victoria Park, the top of the subway breaks through the surface - it starts being in a trench.
  • It stays in an ever decreasing depth trench until Pharmacy (about 300m away) when the top of rail is finally at/near street level. No through traffic can cross Sheppard in this distance because of the trench.
  • 250m farther away, the top of rail would be about 4 to 4.5m above road. This distance would either be an embankment or a bridge structure (or combination), but traffic couldn't go under since there is not enough clearance.
  • For the next 200m, the height of rail above road increases to about 7m. Counting the support system (rail, ties, balast, deck, supporting beams) the clearance is increasing from about 2.5m to 5.0m over this length. Enough for a car to pass under (barely), but not close to meeting the design requirements of 5.0m vertical clearance.
  • Beyond this point (750m beyond Vic Park), the tracks are high enough that there is room below them for the support system (rail, ties, balast, deck, supporting beams) and clearance for traffic.

Thus, in this example, you would have to close Pharmacy, and have no through traffic on Pharmacy and no left turns onto Pharmacy.

There might be just enough space between Pharmacy and Warden, but it would still mean that all left turns from the businesses and side streets would have to be banned between Pharmacy and Warden.
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What max gradients are you using, 3%? My opinion for Sheppard is that we should switch rolling stock to something else, and maybe something that could use Line 3's infrastructure/ROW. Still a subway, but one that's more nimble and could handle steeper grades with ease. Dipping underground then rising onto guideways above suburban arterials or expressways to bridge med/large distances is what a northerly crosstown naturally calls for, but not what the T1/TR "conventional" subway offers. Time to look at different trains.
 
44 North said:
What max gradients are you using, 3%? My opinion for Sheppard is that we should switch rolling stock to something else, and maybe something that could use Line 3's infrastructure/ROW. Still a subway, but one that's more nimble and could handle steeper grades with ease. Dipping underground then rising onto guideways above suburban arterials or expressways to bridge med/large distances is what a northerly crosstown naturally calls for, but not what the T1/TR "conventional" subway offers. Time to look at different trains.
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I used a slope of 2.5%, and a K (rate of change of slope) of 75.
No matter what values I use, (within reason) it works out to a length of about 500m to 700m.
 
Neutrino said:
No news is good news.
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I'm sure there will be news once the upload details are finalized and the time is right to gain the most voter momentum. Thus far they have reiterated support of the current subway lines which is expected and good
 
Streety McCarface said:

Found this video on youtube. It puts into perspective how North York Centre was built, but it doesn't answer the question of why Sheppard hasn't developed. Thoughts?
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I saw this video a few days ago and thought that is was really well made, especially the reasoning on why is hasn't expanded outwards from Yonge. However, I don't think their focus was expanded to Sheppard, so that's why it didn't cover it. My guess is that the reasoning for the intensification is different. NYCC was because the City of North York had their city hall there and wanted to make it walkable while the Sheppard corridor between Yonge and Don Mills is only developers wanting to build next to subway stations and no centralized effort from the city to make it walkable.
 
Streety McCarface said:
But not to the extent of Yonge street. The question is why has Yonge developed so much than Sheppard in a more confined area.
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I think North York Centre appears to be more developed because it has several subway stations within walking distance of each other. The density appears as one large cluster, while Sheppard's stations and associated pockets of density are far apart. Plus there is more retail, institutional and commercial density/development in NYCC. However, midrise development around Willowdale and Bayview is starting to close some of the gaps. The Bayview Village redevelopment will also make the street fabric feel more continuous.

At the other end, Fairview Mall will likely be redeveloped with massive density. There are already plans proposed to make the mall grounds more walkable and boost office space development in the vicinity. No doubt a cluster of condo towers will soon follow. I'm really surprised it's taking this long. I expected Fairview to be the first to get redeveloped after the Sheppard Line was in place. Even Emerald City took a decade after the subway was built to get in full swing. As an aside, this is a cautionary tale that subways don't necessarily bring density. Look at Flemingdon Park and the Don Mills - Eglinton intersection. It had density long before ECLRT or DRL North were a twinkle in anyone's eye.

Although Sheppard feels suburban east of Leslie, there are some pockets of density and things are changing. For instance, the Forest Manor community has changed a lot since Emerald City was built. There has been a massive influx of residents and FM is pretty much always bustling with cars and pedestrians nowadays.
 
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Neutrino said:
I think North York Centre appears to be more developed because it has several subway stations within walking distance of each other. The density appears as one large cluster, while Sheppard's stations and associated pockets of density are far apart. Plus there is more retail, institutional and commercial density/development in NYCC. However, midrise development around Willowdale and Bayview is starting to close some of the gaps. The Bayview Village redevelopment will also make the street fabric feel more continuous.

At the other end, Fairview Mall will likely be redeveloped with massive density. There are already plans proposed to make the mall grounds more walkable and boost office space development in the vicinity. No doubt a cluster of condo towers will soon follow. I'm really surprised it's taking this long. I expected Fairview to be the first to get redeveloped after the Sheppard Line was in place. Even Emerald City took a decade after the subway was built to get in full swing. As an aside, this is a cautionary tale that subways don't necessarily bring density. Look at Flemingdon Park and the Don Mills - Eglinton intersection. It had density long before ECLRT or DRL North were a twinkle in anyone's eye.

Although Sheppard feels suburban east of Leslie, there are some but the Forest Manor community has undergone massive changes since Emerald City was built. There has been a massive influx of residents and FM is pretty much always bustling with cars and pedestrians nowadays.
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While it's true that Sheppard, NYC, and Finch are all fairly close to each other (within a km, while as SY-Bayview is 1.6km and Leslie-DM is 1.5km), Bayview, Bessarion, and Leslie are all within 1 km of each other. There's a lot of open space along this corridor and while we are seeing development at concord park place, it's certainly not near to the extent of any other urban centre in the city.

It brings up some good questions, such as whether the addition of Willowdale station would have actually improved the density along much of the corridor, or whether the problems along the line that exist today can be solved with ease. From the looks of it, if we incorporated more line-2 style suburban bus lines, decreased the stop spacing between Bayview & SY, and improved the zoning regulations of the corridor, the line could be extremely well used. It's sad to think that much of these changes will never be the case due to the nature of those living in the general area.
 
I think the stretches of Sheppard between DM and Leslie, Bessarion to Bayview, and Bayview to Willowdale will eventually fill out with 6-10 story condos. A bunch are already going in at Bayview. The midrise street wall will be punctuated by large clusters of 30-50 story towers at the stations. As I mentioned, redevelopment is going slower than I anticipated, but I think it'll feel quite urban eventually.
 
I think this also brings up an interesting catch 22. We want to build stations far apart in order to reduce costs and decrease travel times. However at the surface level this impacts the walkability of an area. If on the other hand we build our stations closer together this indeed make areas more walkable as seen with the NYCC and Downtown. Even Danforth Avenue is a nice walk. However this obviously comes at the cost of more money for stations and increased travel times due to more stops. I guess it really does just come down to what purpose is trying to be fulfilled.
 
JSF-1 said:
I think this also brings up an interesting catch 22. We want to build stations far apart in order to reduce costs and decrease travel times. However at the surface level this impacts the walkability of an area. If on the other hand we build our stations closer together this indeed make areas more walkable as seen with the NYCC and Downtown. Even Danforth Avenue is a nice walk. However this obviously comes at the cost of more money for stations and increased travel times due to more stops. I guess it really does just come down to what purpose is trying to be fulfilled.
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I am in favor of prioritizing transportation over walkability, when building lines of massive capacity like subways. The number of people who benefit from faster travel is usually much greater than the number of people who enjoy a nice walk.

By the way, the reason original Yonge and BD lines were designed with close stop spacing isn't the desire to make the streets more walkable. Rather, that's because the initial ridership was relatively light on the subway scale (although very massive for the streetcars that preceded the subway). The planners had to get every rider they could get in order to make the subway projects viable.

In practice there are cases where a community badly wants an extra station that will serve them, like Oakwood on ECLRT. In such cases, I'd rather honor the community's desire and add the station. On the other hand, if the locals don't want a station (Sheppard / Willowdale), then it shouldn't be forced upon them just because one size must fit all, or because they are too rich and let's stick it to them. Their reluctance allows other riders to travel a bit faster, and saves the transit funding for use elsewhere on the system.
 
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