Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[sixrings]

What I meant to say is if sheppard is decades away from needing asubway then why not build lrt and spend the bigger money on DRL.

Because money is limited and we need to prioritize. Of all the issues on our network, including Yonge Line overcrowding, a multibillion subway extension that is anticipated to add 3,000 peak hour riders is not a very high priority. Especially when there is another project on the table that will have 6x the ridership, while simultaneously relieving the Yonge Line, dramatically reducing commute times from eastern Toronto, and fixing the problems that the Sheppard Line originally set out to fix.

And of course, building the Sheppard East extension when we're about to build two major infrastructure projects that will dramatically reduce its ridership would be foolish.

In isolation, Sheppard would make sense. But it has no function in the network we're planning to build out.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What I meant to say is if sheppard is decades away from needing asubway then why not build lrt and spend the bigger money on DRL.

Oh, yes. I have no problem with building an LRT or BRT on Sheppard while simultaneously building the Relief Line North. That would be a wonderfully marketable plan. The "Sheppard Subway or bust" crowd won't appreciate it, but I'm counting on everyone else being more reasonable.

Of course if funding is limited, Relief Line North gets priority though.

 

[Cobra]

Oh, yes. I have no problem with building an LRT or BRT on Sheppard while simultaneously building the Relief Line North. That would be a wonderfully marketable plan. The "Sheppard Subway or bust" crowd won't appreciate it, but I'm counting on everyone else being more reasonable.

Of course if funding is limited, Relief Line North gets priority though.

I have a more pragmatic view on the LRT on Sheppard than just subways.

My view is why spend over a billion over Sheppard LRT when that billion can be used on Relief North and West?

Sheppard East in the meantime already have the STC Rocket and could use a Sheppard East Rocket. Might as well put reserved lanes too

 

[Rainforest]

I don't have any ideological opposition to the Sheppard Line extension. I just don't believe it's the right time. The projected ridership is very low, RER will be seeping more ridership from Sheppard, and the Yonge Line is overloaded as is. This project cannot move forward until the Relief Line North is completed, which means mid 2030s at least.

I have to fully agree with this forecast.

The catch-22 here is that the presence of the Relief Line North and RER fare integration will reduce Sheppard Line ridership, which makes the Sheppard Line even more difficult to justify. Once RER and DRL North are implemented, peak ridership on the Sheppard Line may very well drop to 3,000 pphpd, and I would not expect it to exceed 5,000 pphpd (for reference, in 2011, Sheppard Line's extension was anticipated to carry 7,000 pphpd westbound into Yonge in 2031). It's impossible to justify a multi-billion subway extension that will have peak ridership that low.

That's not necessarily correct. Of course if Relief Line North was built in the next 3 years, it would easily snap 1/3 of today's Sheppard ridership.

But we all realize that it will take 15-20 years or more before Relief Line North can reach Sheppard, given the huge total cost and the necessity of staged funding. By that time, the demand for all kinds of travel up north might increase substantially, as the density grows.

The only justifiable long-term solution on Sheppard might be a BRT or LRT system from Scarborough Centre and the Toronto Zoo, feeding into the Don Mills Line / Relief Line.

Those are some of the justifiable solutions. But, we can also talk about a high-floor LRT that uses the Sheppard subway tunnel. Or, about simply enhancing the express bus service; that's the cheapest solution, and likely will meet the demand for the near future.

Also worth noting that the Don Mills Line + Sheppard BRT/LRT combination will offer faster downtown-bounds travel times than the proposed Sheppard East extension alone.

Yes, it will.

Basically, DRL North and RER will largely achieve the goals of the proposed Sheppard East extension. I don't see Sheppard East Extension serving any meaningful purpose in our network once those two projects are completed.

Again, depends on the timing. If those two projects are dragged on for long enough, then by the time they are done, the demand patterns in the Sheppard corridor might change substantially.

 

[Rainforest]

What I meant to say is if sheppard is decades away from needing asubway then why not build lrt and spend the bigger money on DRL.

Perhaps. But then one should ask: why not just add a 84E bus in mixed traffic, and free even more money for DRL? It's not like the demand on Sheppard east of Don Mills can no longer be handled by buses.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Perhaps. But then one should ask: why not just add a 84E bus in mixed traffic, and free even more money for DRL? It's not like the demand on Sheppard east of Don Mills can no longer be handled by buses.

A new ridership assessment will have to be completed, certainly. However, it was anticipated that the Sheppard corridor would see substantial ridership increases that would outstrip the mixed-traffic bus capacity.

In any case, I've been a pretty big advocate of suburban BRT systems, so I'll continue to advocate for one on Sheppard, unless demand is expected to outstrip BRT capacity.

 

[Rainforest]

A new ridership assessment will have to be completed, certainly. However, it was anticipated that the Sheppard corridor would see substantial ridership increases that would outstrip the mixed-traffic bus capacity.

In any case, I've been a pretty big advocate of suburban BRT systems, so I'll continue to advocate for one on Sheppard, unless demand is expected to outstrip BRT capacity.

Generally, no objections. If BRT is a better match for the ridership projections than mixed-traffic express+local bus, while LRT is not strictly needed, let it be BRT.

There is one tricky spot: 404 crossing. There might not be enough space for 2 dedicated surface lanes on the bridge and approaching the Don Mills subway, and buses are not good in tunnels. Maybe a new bus-only bridge can be erected over 404, next to the existing bridge.

 

[Hopkins123]

I'm guessing Montreal have lost their mind then

Anjou
A mall with a some buildings

St-Michel

Jean-Talon
Orange meets Blue

Metro Acadie & Outremont

Snowdon
Queen Mary Rd & Decarie

Those Montrealers... Their planning staff are insane...

Montreal, outclassing us at every turn yet again. Too bad about the language barrier though.

I don't even think any of the Bloor-Danforth Line would exist, much less the Sheppard Line, if we were to follow today's Toronto planners' impossibly high standards for justification to build subways. I mean just look where we're being told not to build new subways:

Victoria Park and Sheppard
Warden and Sheppard
Birchmount and Sheppard
Kennedy and Sheppard
Near Agincourt GO
Scarborough Town Centre

Each potential station site more built-up than any of those Montreal examples that already have a metro.

 

[Hopkins123]

Oh, yes. I have no problem with building an LRT or BRT on Sheppard while simultaneously building the Relief Line North. That would be a wonderfully marketable plan. The "Sheppard Subway or bust" crowd won't appreciate it, but I'm counting on everyone else being more reasonable.

Of course if funding is limited, Relief Line North gets priority though.

I'm with Cobra. Why spend upwards of $1.5 billion on SELRT, when the same money could be used towards subway expansion instead? Just future proof the Sheppard corridor for subways and move towards a permanent, ongoing funding strategy to give Scarborough residents peace of mind that they will not be neglected indefinitely.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm with Cobra. Why spend upwards of $1.5 billion on SELRT, when the same money could be used towards subway expansion instead?

Use the $1.5 Billion for which subway expansion?

Just future proof the Sheppard corridor for subways

Future proof it, how?

 

[Hopkins123]

Use the $1.5 Billion for which subway expansion?

I mean that $1.5 billion - that otherwise would go towards a finite poor-ROI light rail line on Sheppard - could be bunched together with other funding to at least get a half decent extension built. I know you'd rather the money invested along another corridor, but for argument's sake, if that $1.5 billion went towards a subway on Sheppard at the very least new stops at Consumers and Vic Park would be achievable. And in all likelihood the tail tracks could extend almost all the way out to Warden, making a case for adding another stop there reasonable. The City could probably raise the $200 million for that out of its own coffers.

To Warden is already a third of the way to SCC and helps thousands of commuters daily from not having to cross the 404 on a bus. You may say that it doesn't help as much of Scarborough as the LRT could but people are willing to commute from further to access the subway, the LRT is a needless middle-man.

Future proof it, how?

Do like what Montreal is doing and start expropriating land for future station sites. Even though Valerie Plante's Pink Line looks like a pipe dream today, it's been reported in the news that land has already been purchased by the government in Lachine in anticipation of a future metro site on that property. Source: http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-announces-plan-to-update-water-treatment-plants

Move utilities underground too.

 

[syn]

I don't have any ideological opposition to the Sheppard Line extension. I just don't believe it's the right time. The projected ridership is very low, RER will be seeping more ridership from Sheppard, and the Yonge Line is overloaded as is. This project cannot move forward until the Relief Line North is completed, which means mid 2030s at least.

The catch-22 here is that the presence of the Relief Line North and RER fare integration will reduce Sheppard Line ridership, which makes the Sheppard Line even more difficult to justify. Once RER and DRL North are implemented, peak ridership on the Sheppard Line may very well drop to 3,000 pphpd, and I would not expect it to exceed 5,000 pphpd (for reference, in 2011, Sheppard Line's extension was anticipated to carry 7,000 pphpd westbound into Yonge in 2031). It's impossible to justify a multi-billion subway extension that will have peak ridership that low. The only justifiable long-term solution on Sheppard might be a BRT or LRT system from Scarborough Centre and the Toronto Zoo, feeding into the Don Mills Line / Relief Line.

Also worth noting that the Don Mills Line + Sheppard BRT/LRT combination will offer faster downtown-bounds travel times than the proposed Sheppard East extension alone.

Basically, DRL North and RER will largely achieve the goals of the proposed Sheppard East extension. I don't see Sheppard East Extension serving any meaningful purpose in our network once those two projects are completed.

Because money is limited and we need to prioritize. Of all the issues on our network, including Yonge Line overcrowding, a multibillion subway extension that is anticipated to add 3,000 peak hour riders is not a very high priority. Especially when there is another project on the table that will have 6x the ridership, while simultaneously relieving the Yonge Line, dramatically reducing commute times from eastern Toronto, and fixing the problems that the Sheppard Line originally set out to fix.

And of course, building the Sheppard East extension when we're about to build two major infrastructure projects that will dramatically reduce its ridership would be foolish.

In isolation, Sheppard would make sense. But it has no function in the network we're planning to build out.

In extreme isolation - as in, we're not building subways anywhere else, and there are no other projects that can be built.

I don't have an ideological opposition to any subway - it's all a matter of time. I think extending the Sheppard Line would be a great idea if/when there's ever a point in which the demand justifies such infrastructure. We are clearly very far from that point.

Just use those funds on Relief Long... Once the bus routes ridership increases due to Relief Long making the trips to downtown faster and more comfortable then revisiting Sheppard might make sense. By then, Sheppard Avenue from Allen Road to at least Kennedy will be a much denser corridor and the ridership might make sense to finish the line. Sorry, but it's a fact that LRT just doesn't draw as many potential riders as subway. Might as well leave Sheppard for when it's time.

Toronto has to stop half assing transit, it's getting really old.

I completely disagree that surface level transit like LRTs are 'half-assed'. Streetcars formed the backbone of Toronto's transit system for decades before there was justification for subways and the city had no problem with growth.

There's a real benefit to that approach. Surface level transit allows for easy street access - this encourages accessible street front retail and pedestrian friendly environments -all the ingredients necessary for the evolution of a place into a dense(r) environment suitable for higher order transit. There's a cultural/mindset aspect that's being completely ignored, in large part due to the extreme politicisation of the issue. The result are subways that are seen as a convenience for drivers, rather than a necessary mode of transit.

An LRT would not only suit the needs of the area for a long, long time, it would facilitate organic urban growth - the type that would probably not result in an area that needs a subway for a few lifetimes.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I mean that $1.5 billion - that otherwise would go towards a finite poor-ROI light rail line on Sheppard - could be bunched together with other funding to at least get a half decent extension built. I know you'd rather the money invested along another corridor, but for argument's sake, if that $1.5 billion went towards a subway on Sheppard at the very least new stops at Consumers and Vic Park would be achievable.

This makes absolutely no sense if you're looking at the whole network. For someone travelling Downtown, they'd need to take a bus to Victoria Park (Line 4) station, transfer to Line 4, travel one stop, transfer to DRL and travel Downtown. You'd be spending a lot of money to significantly lengthen people's commute times.

Do like what Montreal is doing and start expropriating land for future station sites. Even though Valerie Plante's Pink Line looks like a pipe dream today, it's been reported in the news that land has already been purchased by the government in Lachine in anticipation of a future metro site on that property. Source: http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-announces-plan-to-update-water-treatment-plants

Move utilities underground too.

Lands can be trivially expropriated at any time. Development along Sheppard is already restricted to protect for a future subway.

I don't have an ideological opposition to any subway - it's all a matter of time. I think extending the Sheppard Line would be a great idea if/when there's ever a point in which the demand justifies such infrastructure. We are clearly very far from that point.

I really don't see the Sheppard East extension making sense at any point in my lifetime. The primary purpose of the extension to shuttle commuters between Scarborough and the Yonge Line. But with four higher order transit lines intercepting the Sheppard corridor, ridership will forever be extremely diluted.

 

[sixrings]

Generally, no objections. If BRT is a better match for the ridership projections than mixed-traffic express+local bus, while LRT is not strictly needed, let it be BRT.

There is one tricky spot: 404 crossing. There might not be enough space for 2 dedicated surface lanes on the bridge and approaching the Don Mills subway, and buses are not good in tunnels. Maybe a new bus-only bridge can be erected over 404, next to the existing bridge.

If people want to have a BRT on Sheppard then I am fine with that. But I tend to think the anti LRT but PRO BRT crowd is really just delay delay delay until eventually we get a Subway. Once LRT goes in the thought is there is no turning back but BRT can be taken out eventually and Subway put in. Anyways maybe I shouldn't worry what peoples motives are. Personally I just would like to see our major roads which are decades away from even the thought of getting a subway getting some sort of ROW transit. So essentially I look at the Blue Night map and think all of these lines are important. These are the lines that need ROW. My preference is LRT over BRT but anything that keeps me out of traffic during rush hour is better than what we have. Obviously we do need subways. But the subways we need is the DRL Long and west. If we had enough transit elsewhere I wouldn't care too much of the thought of burning money on Sheppard.

 

[11th]

This makes absolutely no sense if you're looking at the whole network. For someone travelling Downtown, they'd need to take a bus to Victoria Park (Line 4) station, transfer to Line 4, travel one stop, transfer to DRL and travel Downtown. You'd be spending a lot of money to significantly lengthen people's commute times.


I really don't see the Sheppard East extension making sense at any point in my lifetime. The primary purpose of the extension to shuttle commuters between Scarborough and the Yonge Line. But with four higher order transit lines intercepting the Sheppard corridor, ridership will forever be extremely diluted.

It may be faster for someone to transfer from bus to Stouffville to get downtown - at least the financial district and south core. Which is why an extension to Agincourt makes more sense: those on a bus can transfer at Agincourt, or travel ~4 stops for DRL, or a few more for line 1 (east), or another two stops to line 1 (west) if the western extension is also built.