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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

TheTigerMaster said:
Most riders will be using the DRL to get downtown. It's cheaper, more frequent, and generally puts people closer to their final destinations.

But lets analyze how your proposal would impact trip times. For people that want to take Stouffville RER to get Downtown, your proposal to extend the Sheppard Line to Agincourt has no impact on them. So let's look at persons coming from east of Agincourt (by bus), looking to travel Downtown via DRL

It's 5.3 km between Agincourt and Don Mills.

By BRT, moving at 23 km/5, it takes 14 mins to travel that distance.

Let's look at the subway travel time:
  • A passenger would need to walk from the bus to the subway platform. Let’s say that adds +90 seconds (a pretty conservative estimate given then long transfer times in the new TYSSE stations)
  • They’d need to wait, on average, 2.5 minutes for the subway train
  • Then it would take the train, travelling at 30 km/h, 10.5 minutes to travel 5.3 km.

So the total time between Agincourt and Don Mills Stations for your proposal would be 14.5 minutes. This proposal of yours does not save people any time if they’re coming from east of Agincourt (in fact, it adds about half a minute).


Nevermind that there'd be issues with the ridership of this extension. The extension to STC was expected to add around 3,000 peak hour riders, and an extension only to Agincourt would be a fraction of that.
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My point was about connectivity. Cost-wise BRT wins, but in terms of building up our grade-separated transit network and for redundancy, the extension makes sense in my opinion. Bloor and Queen for downtown, Eglinton for midtown and Sheppard for north.

Oh, and I do hope by the time (if) line 4 ever get extended - which will probably be years/decades away, we will get full fare integration and 15-min service on Stouffville and other GO-lines.
 
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IMHO, relief line should go with alignment 5 to connect with the Sheppard line at Victoria Park to close the loop.

Everything eastbound of Victoria Park can be built using a Viva style BRT with signal priority. No need to spend all the money for an LRT.
 
UD2 said:
IMHO, relief line should go with alignment 5 to connect with the Sheppard line at Victoria Park to close the loop.

Everything eastbound of Victoria Park can be built using a Viva style BRT with signal priority. No need to spend all the money for an LRT.
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A reminder of alignment 5 below.

With Ford getting in, I see his main goals being:
  • STC connected to downtown by subway (grade-separate, no transfer).
  • STC connect to Sheppard by subway (grade-separate, no transfer).
  • DRL connects to North York (grade-separate, no transfer).
  • + Possibly Grade-separate Eglinton from Leslie to Kennedy.

Just like Rob was willing to compromise and consider connecting STC to the Eglinton line, and Rob was willing to compromise by using LRT, I am sure Doug would be willing to compromise as long as the general goals are met. I also expect that Doug cares about Toronto and wants to complete the subway plans of brother Rob. If the City proposes on-street LRT, he will just lose confidence in the planning process and push for his specific ideas. If proposal satisfy the general goals - they can be successful.
As an early warning - I don't think Doug is tied to a "loop" at STC that connects the B-D to the Sheppard line. It can easily be shown that not looping allows B-D to head to northern Scarborough and Sheppard to head East. Same thing with the loop at/near Vic Park - it doesn't have to be an actual loop.


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UD2 said:
IMHO, relief line should go with alignment 5 to connect with the Sheppard line at Victoria Park to close the loop.

Everything eastbound of Victoria Park can be built using a Viva style BRT with signal priority. No need to spend all the money for an LRT.
Click to expand...

Why though?

That's 4 km of additional subway that has to be built, probably adding around $2.5 Billion+ to project costs. I don't really see any significant planning rationale for this. Especially when this would likely reduce the crowding relief that the DRL provides to Yonge.
 
It’s remarkable how the Sheppard loop came out of nowhere, without any credible demand modeling or ROI analysis. It seems to have burst out of DoFo’s brain, kinda like the way Athena sprang from Zeus’ head, except she was the goddess of wisdom so maybe not. Though Zeus and DoFo do share anger and impulse control issues so maybe.

Given the density of the area the Sheppard loop will traverse, it seems likely that once again Toronto is going to spend the most money to move the fewest people by the mode that makes the least sense. Fair enough, that pretty much sums up the past forty years of transit planning and what little building we did in this town. But when folks, even most good suburban folks, wonder why their commutes are an increasing hell, and why the provincial debt has mysteriously exploded, they should remember this idiocy in particular.
 
pman said:
It’s remarkable how the Sheppard loop came out of nowhere, without any credible demand modeling or ROI analysis.
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It's effectively the same plan that was in place when Doug Ford Sr. was an MPP (Sheppard to SCC). Of course, we also know that conservatives at that time weren't thrilled with the plan (as demonstrated by it being underfunded).

Interesting part is between the added SSE stations at the curve back west, it also delays SSE significantly. Significantly enough that there will be only minimal funding required by Ford for Scarborough during his entire first term because there will not be a construction contract tendered.

Ford's 2022 election campaign will also be about building a subway in Scarborough. It'll be interesting to see how many times Scarborough elects a Ford based on that promise.
 
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UD2 said:
IMHO, relief line should go with alignment 5 to connect with the Sheppard line at Victoria Park to close the loop.

Everything eastbound of Victoria Park can be built using a Viva style BRT with signal priority. No need to spend all the money for an LRT.
Click to expand...
You know what I could go for that, and I'm notorious anti suburban subway. It would finally end the debate on Sheppard. It might cost more now. But we need to tunnel the LRT to vic park anyways and I dont think the people on Sheppard are ever going to give up their fight for Subways there.
 
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