Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[kEiThZ]

The real question: why can't politicians be patient and build what's needed more first?

Because politicians have constituents to answer to, who want results. And most constituents don't care about the city at large. They care about what impacts them daily.

Even then I'm not sure how the dual mode high-floor LRV option would be that expensive (I believe the quote was 1 billion dollars) when all you're doing is buying like 30 new LRVs.

I believe that quote (I think it was less than a billion), was to convert the platforms down.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Because politicians have constituents to answer to, who want results. And most constituents don't care about the city at large. They care about what impacts them daily.



I believe that quote (I think it was less than a billion), was to convert the platforms down.

The city really should not be considering Low Floor LRVs anywhere outside the streetcar network. They only slow down travel times and waste space.

 

[Streety McCarface]

^That's a tricky proposition @JSF-1 , and in a sense we're seeing that exact same thing happening with the B-D extension right now. The proposed extension there will be using ATC, while the rest of the line isnt capable of using ATC right now. At the same time the old T1 cars are ageing and aren't capable of operating on ATC, so the entire fleet has to be replaced with new cars capable of running ATC before the extension opens. Then add to the fact the entire B-D line needs to have it's signal replaced with ATC before the new fleet and extension opens, and it makes for a very expensive and complex undertaking.

So when certain politicians (for example John Tory) come out and say they want to extend the subway as shortsighted as the proposal already is, it becomes even more shortsighted when they aren't aware of all the added costs and complications associated with the non-sensible proposals they come up with.

But the Bloor Danforth ATC conversion is going to happen regardless of the scarborough subway, the line has just as much ridership per kilometer as line 1.

 

[TransitBart]

The point is that it's being utilized, even during the midday.

Here. Here. That was the point of the original post.

 

[Hopkins123]

Convert Sheppard to LRT. Yes it costs money. Solve the nonsense subway debate, which is largely coming from the fact that there's an existing subway there and people don't want to transfer. Let's be honest what this is about.

Convert the subway. Make it like Eglinton. Sheppard will even benefit from more frequent service with LRT. And it'll be easy to make branches. A branch to STC down McCowan. Another branch to Malvern through the Progress Hydro corridor. And another branch to the zoo. 6 min frequencies on all 3 branches and 2 min frequencies till McCowan. This would also theoretically enable a Malvern-STC and Zoo-STC service, in lieu of the SLRT extensions that were supposed to happen.

This resolves little. Even the Crosstown is suggested to do away with its road-median segments and go fully grade-separated whole length.

Why ought we convert the Sheppard Subway just to placate those that want an at-grade, road-median tram through northeast Scarborough?

The better solution is obvious. Extend both the Bloor-Danforth and Sheppard Lines to STC and then have the Sheppard Line continue northeasternly to Malvern via the same alignment that was proposed for the SLRT (elevated through to Centennial College and crossing the 401 bridged; then tunneled the rest of the way to Malvern Town Centre via the hydro corridor (or more optimally to Morningside and Finch, where a seasonal monorail adjacent the rail tracks could connect to the Zoo).

 

[Voltz]

This resolves little. Even the Crosstown is suggested to do away with its road-median segments and go fully grade-separated whole length.

Why ought we convert the Sheppard Subway just to placate those that want an at-grade, road-median tram through northeast Scarborough?

The better solution is obvious. Extend both the Bloor-Danforth and Sheppard Lines to STC and then have the Sheppard Line continue northeasternly to Malvern via the same alignment that was proposed for the SLRT (elevated through to Centennial College and crossing the 401 bridged; then tunneled the rest of the way to Malvern Town Centre via the hydro corridor (or more optimally to Morningside and Finch, where a seasonal monorail adjacent the rail tracks could connect to the Zoo).

I don't know how many times this needs to be said.

There is no ridership justification for a Sheppard Subway!

 

[rbt]

I don't know how many times this needs to be said.

There is no ridership justification for a Sheppard Subway!

They're tired of Bessarion being at the bottom of the ridership list and demand new additions below it.

 

[Hopkins123]

I don't know how many times this needs to be said.

There is no ridership justification for a Sheppard Subway!

What is the point of contention here? It's undeniable that the Consumers Business Park is the second largest employment centre in the City; the VP, Warden and Kennedy buses are busy and well used through the Sheppard corridor and that grade-separated transit east from the Town Centre has long been proposed to Malvern via Centennial College.

 

[Leo_Chan]

What is the point of contention here? It's undeniable that the Consumers Business Park is the second largest employment centre in the City; the VP, Warden and Kennedy buses are busy and well used through the Sheppard corridor and that grade-separated transit east from the Town Centre has long been proposed to Malvern via Centennial College.

I thought it was the second largest employment area outside of Downtown Toronto, meaning it's the third largest in the city. The second being the Airport Area. But I do agree that the subway should be extended.

The thing that was discussed before was whether or not the Sheppard East Subway Extension should cross Highway 401 twice, once east of Agincourt and once east of Centennial College (3 times if you count the SSE to Sheppard/McCowan). If the SESE just stays on Sheppard, then it would only have to cross Highway 401 once (SSE at Highway 401/McCowan).

 

[syn]

What is the point of contention here? It's undeniable that the Consumers Business Park is the second largest employment centre in the City; the VP, Warden and Kennedy buses are busy and well used through the Sheppard corridor and that grade-separated transit east from the Town Centre has long been proposed to Malvern via Centennial College.

And what is the density of this centre?

The 29 Dufferin has about almost as many riders as the Sheppard East and West buses combined (and it's a shorter route too).

There is no justification for a subway on Sheppard. After the SSE, RER and Eglinton Crosstown, we need to explore improving transit on the west side of the city.

 

[amnesiajune]

The photo isn't showing at the line at its busiest, and that's not the point. The line is utilized. Not as well as the other lines, and not worthy of extra service (the TRs were a huge upgrade as is), but it is adequately utilized. Increase the number of bus routes into Leslie station, develop a bessarion station bus route and the line will get better utilization, and when the line surpasses 15K PPKmPD, (daily usage of 80K PPD), then we can talk about increasing frequencies.

The line physically can't get to 15K. It's capacity by the TTC service standards is 7500 passengers per hour/direction. At crush load it's 11,000.

A Bessarion bus route would be interesting. I've always wondered why the TTC doesn't have any service between Don Mills, Finch, Bayview and Sheppard other than the 51 bus. If the 78 bus is justifiable, a route going up Burbank and Page would be justifiable too.

 

[hw621]

And what is the density of this centre?

The 29 Dufferin has about almost as many riders as the Sheppard East and West buses combined (and it's a shorter route too).

There is no justification for a subway on Sheppard. After the SSE, RER and Eglinton Crosstown, we need to explore improving transit on the west side of the city.

FWLRT

 

[Leo_Chan]

FWLRT

Kipling LRT

 

[Hopkins123]

I thought it was the second largest employment area outside of Downtown Toronto, meaning it's the third largest in the city. The second being the Airport Area. But I do agree that the subway should be extended.

The thing that was discussed before was whether or not the Sheppard East Subway Extension should cross Highway 401 twice, once east of Agincourt and once east of Centennial College (3 times if you count the SSE to Sheppard/McCowan). If the SESE just stays on Sheppard, then it would only have to cross Highway 401 once (SSE at Highway 401/McCowan).

I just suggested that alignment because it would maximize the usefulness of the Sheppard Line. The major destinations of Scarborough are Agincourt, STC, Centennial and Malvern Town Centre which all conveniently are adjacent to the Sheppard corridor. It may be worth deviating from the street grid to allow direct access to those destinations.

After Kennedy-Sheppard Stn I'm envisioning an elevated alignment all the way back to the Markham-Sheppard area, then above ground again if it reaches Morningside and Finch. It's a good long term plan and could work if funding was ongoing and didn't stop and stall pending every upcoming election cycle.

 

[Hopkins123]

Kipling LRT

Brown's Line-Highway 27 BRT