Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[BurlOak]

Line 2 trains going down Line 4 at Pape would be even better than just having the interchange station there.

Would trains still stop at the interchange stations if they're interlined? If so, wouldn't thus require station platforms to be in specific angles that allow for tunnels to connect further off? Or if they don't, then just have tunnels that merge together? How exactly does this work at St George, Bay, and Museam?

I haven't thought about interlining at Pape, but maybe for Sheppard.
There is more than 1 way to skin a cat. I imagined the Sheppard West Station on the Sheppard Line being somewhat away from the Sheppard West Station on the Spadina line. You are right that there is no need for actual transfers there. I would connect them by tunnel - sort of Spadina Station style transfer. Having the stations separated, makes for easier construction as a complex station does not have to be built under an active station. It's much easier to build a simple tunnel under a station. What I show has one conflict between WB to SB trains conflicting with SB to EB (which requires less frequent train movements than a conflict on the main Spadina portion). All others are grade-separated, and these would be built in the middle of a field, where there is ample room for construction.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I haven't thought about interlining at Pape, but maybe for Sheppard.
There is more than 1 way to skin a cat. I imagined the Sheppard West Station on the Sheppard Line being somewhat away from the Sheppard West Station on the Spadina line. You are right that there is no need for actual transfers there. I would connect them by tunnel - sort of Spadina Station style transfer. Having the stations separated, makes for easier construction as a complex station does not have to be built under an active station. It's much easier to build a simple tunnel under a station. What I show has one conflict between WB to SB trains conflicting with SB to EB (which requires less frequent train movements than a conflict on the main Spadina portion). All others are grade-separated, and these would be built in the middle of a field, where there is ample room for construction.

View attachment 137165

Is something like this possible?

 

[BurlOak]

Is something like this possible?
View attachment 137167

Yes, but that purple circle will be big - maybe a kilometer.
Going WestBound, there is a (~45 degree) right curve with 300m radius minimum, followed by a (~135 degree) left curve. There is then a minimum 150m platform, followed by the same in reverse (135 degree and 45 degree curves) until you are now facing East Bound. Add to each of those distances some spirals (the gradual transition from a straight portion to a curve) and you are talking a pretty big circle.

 

[christiesplits]

While your reasoning is sensible enough; the phase 1 Sheppard Subway was approved as going to Victoria Park Avenue.

The choice to cut back to Don Mills was purely financial.

The reasoning for Victoria Park as a termination point was to serve the large office node in the Consumers Rd. Business/Office Park.

While most of us would agree Sheppard should not have been built at all, at the time, the case for it, if any would be later, notably behind the Relief Line; we would also say, if you were going to bother building it, you had to give it some chance to be useful. Getting it to Vic. Park, and building the infill station at Willowdale were critical to that.

As for the current situation, IF Sheppard gets rapid transit at all, east of Don Mills, it will be tunneled at least to Consumers Rd, whether its LRT or subway.

In that context, there is genuine room for discussing whether it might not make more sense to take the subway to Vic Park.

That said, this remains a project well down the list of those that should be pursued.

It ought not to see the light of day in any form, till the Relief line hits Sheppard, and Dundas West in the west end; and RER is fully delivered and we've somehow resolved the LRT replacement in Scarborough as well.

So let's all make a date to discuss it again in 2028 ( I try to be an optimist, LOL)

Thanks for the historical background, NL. According to Transit Toronto, the Willowdale Ave station was scrapped due to community opposition, not financial reasons, is this correct? Also, why was Bessarion selected over Willowdale?

I'm in no way a Sheppard subway enthusiast, but I agree that an extension to the Consumers Business Park and Victoria Park would have been ideal. I recall Karen Stintz floating the idea when there was discussion about cost savings for the Crosstown.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Thanks for the historical background, NL. According to Transit Toronto, the Willowdale Ave station was scrapped due to community opposition, not financial reasons, is this correct? Also, why was Bessarion selected over Willowdale?

"After years of debate between Metro council and the Ontario government, approval and funding were finally granted in 1994 for a shortened phase one, running the Sheppard subway between Yonge and Don Mills, and construction started soon thereafter.",....
"Bayview station was the only intermediate station on the route that wasn’t threatened with closure as the line was built. Early plans to build a station at Willowdale did not make it past the design phase as it was felt that development around the intersection was not dense enough to support a station. As budget concerns dogged construction, politicians wrestled with suggestions not to open Bessarion station in order to save $30 million. Similar proposals surfaced for Leslie. Had they been acted upon, Bayview would have been the only stop between Sheppard-Yonge and Don Mills, but Mel Lastman and TTC Chairman Howard Moscoe campaigned for and secured the funding necessary to open Bessarion and Leslie stations with the rest of the line."
https://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/stations/004-sheppard-subway/bayview.shtml


My personal recollection as a long time local resident of the area,....

The Willowdale Subway station was eliminated prior to construction of the Sheppard STUBway line due to low ridership prediction and MikeHarris cut-backs,.... the entire Sheppard Subway line was cut from it's terminius of Downsview Station and ScarboroughTownCentre to just Yonge and DonMills Station. In addition, Willowdale Subway Station also suffered from local community opposition which didn't want to see high density development at the Willowdale and Sheppard Area. But provisions where built on the Sheppard Stubway line at Willowdale Avenue to allow for a future subway station.

Similarly when Yonge Subway was extended to Finch Subway station in 1974, provisions were made for a future subway station between Sheppard and Finch at ParkHomes/Empress Ave which allowed for the new NorthYorkCentre subway station to be built around 1988 as part of the NorthYorkCityCentre development; NorthYorkCentre TTC subway station is the busiest subway station in the TTC network that isn't serviced directly by bus or streetcar line (terminus); it's all walk-in traffic mostly from the surrounding high density developments.

A future Willowdale Station is still a very long way off,...

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...es-10s-ibi-group-planning.26162/#post-1153691
​

 

[Northern Light]

Thanks for the historical background, NL. According to Transit Toronto, the Willowdale Ave station was scrapped due to community opposition, not financial reasons, is this correct? Also, why was Bessarion selected over Willowdale?

There was community opposition to Willowdale Stn. Though, it wasn't really to the station per se.

It was opposition to the densities that would be approved in association w/said station, and the loss of existing retail along Sheppard during station construction.

That cutting it also saved $$ made building the line more viable.

But if memory serves there is some future-proofing for Willowdale Station in the as-built line.

***

As to Bessarion, it was contemplated in the context of the dense redevelopment of the Canadian Tire lands, I believe.

Though it certainly wasn't justified by the as-is conditions at the time.

The choice to cut Willowdale had the unfortunate (to me) effect of justifying continued Sheppard bus service, but ah-well.

 

[sixrings]

If bombardier sells I can't help but think this should happen. Personally I would prefer Sheppard complete plus a drl long and scrap the danforth extension.

 

[christiesplits]

Bayview would have been the only stop between Sheppard-Yonge and Don Mills, but Mel Lastman and TTC Chairman Howard Moscoe campaigned for and secured the funding necessary to open Bessarion and Leslie stations with the rest of the line."

Yikes, we almost ended up with a three stop subway line?!?

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Yikes, we almost ended up with a three stop subway line?!?

That's still one stop better than a 1-stop subway! Hmmm,...

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

There was community opposition to Willowdale Stn. Though, it wasn't really to the station per se.

It was opposition to the densities that would be approved in association w/said station, and the loss of existing retail along Sheppard during station construction.

It should also be noted that,.... at the time, a local "rookie" City Councillor (for City of North York then Toronto after amalgamation) lived about 500m from the proposed Willowdale Station,... what's that rookie councillor name again,... John Filet, Fillion or Filion,.. or something like that,... hmmm,.... whatever became of that guy???

 

[Leo_Chan]

That's still one stop better than a 1-stop subway! Hmmm,...

And it's a 3 stop 5.35km subway vs 1 stop 5.8km extension.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I get omitting Bessarion.. but Bayview?

 

[Hopkins123]

"After years of debate between Metro council and the Ontario government, approval and funding were finally granted in 1994 for a shortened phase one, running the Sheppard subway between Yonge and Don Mills, and construction started soon thereafter.",....
"Bayview station was the only intermediate station on the route that wasn’t threatened with closure as the line was built. Early plans to build a station at Willowdale did not make it past the design phase as it was felt that development around the intersection was not dense enough to support a station. As budget concerns dogged construction, politicians wrestled with suggestions not to open Bessarion station in order to save $30 million. Similar proposals surfaced for Leslie. Had they been acted upon, Bayview would have been the only stop between Sheppard-Yonge and Don Mills, but Mel Lastman and TTC Chairman Howard Moscoe campaigned for and secured the funding necessary to open Bessarion and Leslie stations with the rest of the line."
https://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/stations/004-sheppard-subway/bayview.shtml


My personal recollection as a long time local resident of the area,....

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...es-10s-ibi-group-planning.26162/#post-1153691
​

Stations at Willowdale (and Senlac - since the tail tracks already extend close to Senlac) could be infilled easily and wouldn't even cost too much.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

The big ticket in subway line construction are the stations themselves,... that's why they're trying to cut cost on Scarborough Subway extension by cutting station to just one! On Spadina Subway extension, the cost for each of those subway stations were in the 100s of millions of dollars! The City isn't going to get the amount of intensification needed around Sheppard & Senlac or Sheppard & Willowdale to justify the cost of subway stations.

The only subway station that was ever built mid-station was North York Centre partly funded via Developer fee/Section37 CommunityBenefit from North York City Centre development in mid 1980's. North York Centre station is busiest TTC subway station without a bus or streetcar line (excluding the mainly empty Yonge 97 bus route); basically all it's passenger volume is local walk-in passengers!
https://transit.toronto.on.ca/subwa...ersity-spadina-subway/north-york-centre.shtml

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Stations at Willowdale (and Senlac - since the tail tracks already extend close to Senlac) could be infilled easily and wouldn't even cost too much.

If hundreds of millions of dollars is what you consider a small amount of money, then sure.