News   Feb 24, 2021
 38     0 
News   Feb 24, 2021
 496     1 
News   Feb 24, 2021
 393     1 

Shabby Public Realm

Richard White

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
3,529
Reaction score
1,982
Location
Scarborough, Ontario

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
10,313
Reaction score
14,804
Location
Toronto/EY
There is probably a city lawyer out there that says this may not be AODA compliant or a liability issue because it is not smooth concrete.

We already have all-brick sidewalks and roads in select locations.

There is no liability issue associated with this.

The issue by and large, is upfront cost; and non-standardized material.

The City is getting a bit better at accepting these, though generally only with the financial support of BIAs
 

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
10,313
Reaction score
14,804
Location
Toronto/EY

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
10,313
Reaction score
14,804
Location
Toronto/EY
I assume @W. K. Lis post features a photo to some, but as I only see it via following the link, I thought I'd post it here:

1605642540047.png

From here: https://scontent.fyzd1-3.fna.fbcdn....=f5e8a95faf27f26c06fae2b88f48d119&oe=5FDAD90E
 

yrt+viva=1system

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
370
Reaction score
369
Random thought of the day (well it's been on my mind for a while now): Is it just me or does Toronto seem to always half-ass projects? It almost seems like the City doesn't even try or if it does it doesn't hold third party partners accountable for poor outcomes. It's a very general thought and I know that the City has standards manuals but what's the point of producing these if they don't even follow through on their own standards? A good example is the Forestry department that doesn't even consult its own standards for species of trees that should be planted.

The most recent shabby public realm that prompted my curiosity is the poor infrastructure construction and this being simple road, curbs and sidewalk reconstruction. Some of the poor craftsmanship can outright be noticed and leaves one to wonder how its even acceptable. I know that it would never fly in other municipal jurisdictions and would lead to the contractor to do it right the first time or re-do it. So why does the City seem to let this pass?

Random thoughts.
 

yrt+viva=1system

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
370
Reaction score
369
Not just bricks.

Toronto has to use paint on top of asphalt, instead of using coloured asphalt. The paint will wear away over time, in addition they make the surface more slippery.

Let me just say from personal experience in the asphalt industry, it is very expensive to produce coloured asphalt. It's almost about 5x the cost of standard black asphalt. The additives required are not environmentally friendly, cost of sourcing the colouring addictive and the cost of laying down coloured asphalt comes from designating separate construction vehicles and production plants to maintain a consistent colour without contamination. Then there is the cleaning of production equipment after a project is finished..
 
Last edited:

afransen

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
3,733
Reaction score
2,007
Apparently such brick-laying machines aren't all that widely employed in NL, most are laid by hand. The higher material cost is offset by the fact that the pavers last forever and can be relaid following repairs/utility access. I wonder if they would stand up to Canadian levels of salting and freeze/thaw. I suspect our winters would be harder on them than NL would see--though they do get snow.
 

afransen

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
3,733
Reaction score
2,007
Let me just say from personal experience in the asphalt industry, it is very expensive to produce coloured asphalt. It's almost about 5x the cost of standard black asphalt. The additives required are not environmentally friendly, cost of sourcing the colouring addictive and the cost of laying down coloured asphalt comes from designating separate construction vehicles and production plants to maintain a consistent colour without contamination. Then there is the cleaning of production equipment after a project is finished. *Worked on the asphalt for the VIVA transitways.
It is used extensively in NL as a top-coat for bike paths. They tend to last a very long time because bikes are essentially like having no traffic at all (inconsequential loading). As I understand it, they use red as it is the cheapest colour to produce. It comes at a premium but it is probably done at sufficient scale that the premium is not so large as to make a dramatic impact on project cost. Unlike a BRT roadway, which I imagine would need to be built to higher load rating and would not last as long.
 

yrt+viva=1system

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
370
Reaction score
369
It is used extensively in NL as a top-coat for bike paths. They tend to last a very long time because bikes are essentially like having no traffic at all (inconsequential loading). As I understand it, they use red as it is the cheapest colour to produce. It comes at a premium but it is probably done at sufficient scale that the premium is not so large as to make a dramatic impact on project cost. Unlike a BRT roadway, which I imagine would need to be built to higher load rating and would not last as long.
That is part of the equation for the cost. Sourcing the material is the predominant driver of the cost. For example red pigmentation is created from adding iron oxide which happens to be only readily available from Germany. So the cost of transporting the material is much less to the Netherlands from Germany than to Canada (the VIVA project had to ship a lot of the red stuff from Germany for part of the project).

This is of course depends on what method you want to make your coloured asphalt:

eg. start with black asphalt > make it white > then pigmentation for the required colour
eg. create clear asphalt > add pigmentation
 
Last edited:

rbt

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
6,710
Reaction score
2,387
I suspect our winters would be harder on them than NL would see--though they do get snow.

They get snow but it rarely goes below zero long enough for the ground to freeze.

That said, Toronto has lots of brickwork (on the waterfront) that survives winter perfectly well. A thick concrete layer with brick/sand on top seems to work well here. The thick concrete layer doesn't make utility cuts any easier but the brick would hide the repair.
 
Last edited:

Top