September 11th: Real or Fraud?

[gristle]

Why should i have to prove to you that it's a conspiracy?

Because if you can't prove what you so resolutely claim, then there is no conspiracy. That's why.

You so easily reject things you weren't conditioned to believe so you'll never know the meaning or understand the concept of open mindedness.

It's now quite evident that you have no grasp of the concept of reason. Your vaunted and uncritical view on "open-mindedness" means that you are likely to believe in the tooth fairy because money has been known to appear in place of a lost tooth. As has been repeated for you over and over, you must prove by way of testable evidence, by way of time lines, by way key players, accomplices and their motives that a conspiracy exists. You've admitted having no proof to support your assertion of a conspiracy, and that fact has been plainly obvious. In fact, in no measurable sense does the entire 9/11 "truth" movement posit any reasonable or testable conspiracy theory. What exists is a chorus of empty claims and a mish-mash of unsupported assertions. Everyone involved wants to believe, but none want to actually step up to the plate a prove anything in a reasonable, testable and logical manner.

No, that would require real effort.

It's just so much easier to spout off about open-mindedness - all the while avoiding the actual hard work of showing testable evidence and a supporting structure that would back up claims of a conspiracy.

 

[Kamuix]

Because if you can't prove what you so resolutely claim, then there is no conspiracy. That's why.

Go ahead.. keep dodging me. Do you believe the official story?

It's now quite evident that you have no grasp of the concept of reason. Your vaunted and uncritical view on "open-mindedness" means that you are likely to believe in the tooth fairy because money has been known to appear in place of a lost tooth.

Associating open-mindedness to believing the tooth fairy further shows that you don't know have a clue what it is.

As has been repeated for you over and over, you must prove by way of testable evidence, by way of time lines, by way key players, accomplices and their motives that a conspiracy exists.

I've told you over 10 times that this is to get you thinking, and just to consider what might have happened. But you've shown that you don't have the ability to even consider anything but the official story.

You've admitted having no proof to support your assertion of a conspiracy, and that fact has been plainly obvious. In fact, in no measurable sense does the entire 9/11 "truth" movement posit any reasonable or testable conspiracy theory

Obviously you haven't watched Loose Change or even seen a talk with an architect who explains how it's impossible. not to mention the thousands of others. You demand proof on one side, but automatically believe the official story just because it's official. That's brain washed.

What exists is a chorus of empty claims and a mish-mash of unsupported assertions. Everyone involved wants to believe, but none want to actually step up to the plate a prove anything in a reasonable, testable and logical manner.

There's tons of good evidence and good questions that go on and on about good unanswered questions about 9/11 if you were to just do the research. But you've pre-decided that it can't be true and your closed mind is incapable of considering anything other then what you've been conditioned to believe.

Theres tons of history of government staging events go to to war & other profits. It was admitted that the incident that started the Vietnam war didn't actually happen. There's 100,000's dead. And you can't even consider that the government may be corrupt. The government does a good job at deceiving people. You've been given a chance.. but you're mind is too far under. So quit dodging me and ignoring the fact that i'm not trying to make you believe what i believe. Answer these questions:

Are you skeptical of the Official story?


The point is you won't even consider that the government may be corrupt. It has nothing to do with evidence. If i were to show you evidence, you'd just find a way to reject it.

And when it does become widely known that 9/11 was an inside job, you'll probably just say something like "Well i already has a feeling it was but no one could ever show me the actual evidence so how could i have known?" Well the evidence you want is official evidence. So how is it possible for official evidence to be government official if the people running this would just deny it in such pathological ways. And as long as it's not admitted by them, it can't be proven to you. So when it does get proven and widely known.. what will you say?

 

[gristle]

Go ahead.. keep dodging me. Do you believe the official story?

Be clear about this Kamuix, you have asserted that there is a conspiracy. You should back up your claims with proof. That you have consistently failed to back up your assertions indicates something - as in you have no proof and no grounds for proclaiming a conspiracy. You merely believe in the absence of any proof. You assume that your questions are sufficient to show proof of a conspiracy. They are not.

Associating open-mindedness to believing the tooth fairy further shows that you don't know have a clue what it is.

What I am telling you is that you are gullible and uncritical. You have indicated that you have no proof to back up your claims of a conspiracy. In fact, you can't even lay out the explanatory framework for the claim of a conspiracy - yet you persist in believing that there is a conspiracy. That shows a complete lack of critical judgement on your part. So yes, your self-assumed "open-mindedness" is akin to believing in the tooth fairy.

I've told you over 10 times that this is to get you thinking, and just to consider what might have happened. But you've shown that you don't have the ability to even consider anything but the official story.

By virtue of the fact that you've been trying to sell your beliefs regarding an imagined conspiracy, it is you who ought to start trying to think more clearly and critically about the diffuse stories that you presently buy into without an adequate measure of rudimentary analysis.

Obviously you haven't watched Loose Change or even seen a talk with an architect who explains how it's impossible. not to mention the thousands of others. You demand proof on one side, but automatically believe the official story just because it's official. That's brain washed.

Other than you selling your favourite video, or engaging in a very weak appeal to authority, not once have you ever clearly refuted what you refer to as the "official" story. The reason being is that you constantly confuse your questions as adequate stand-ins for actual refutations. To be more blunt, you are not capable of understanding the significant distinctions.

There's tons of good evidence and good questions that go on and on about good unanswered questions about 9/11 if you were to just do the research.

Tons of evidence? Yet you can't even pony up a gram to back up your claims. What's more, if you make a claim for the existence of evidence, it must fit into an overall framework in order for the evidence to make any sense. But as you have no evidence, no framework nor any operational theory, you still have nothing to offer.

As for your return to questions, I will once again point out to you that questions are not facts, nor are questions evidence of a conspiracy. Everyone can ask questions, but there is always a distinction between useful questions and baseless questions. It's quite evident that you can't - or don't want to - make the distinction. It would be a step to undermining your beliefs, and you are unwilling to let these beliefs go.

Theres tons of history of government staging events go to to war & other profits. It was admitted that the incident that started the Vietnam war didn't actually happen. There's 100,000's dead. And you can't even consider that the government may be corrupt. The government does a good job at deceiving people. You've been given a chance.. but you're mind is too far under. So quit dodging me and ignoring the fact that i'm not trying to make you believe what i believe.

And absolutely none of this has any bearing on your conspiracy theories regarding 9/11. It is nothing more than you attempting to engage in some superficial spin and faulty reasoning. Worse yet, it is non-sensical and merely indicative of your paranoia regarding government. To be clear: paranoia is not proof.

The point is you won't even consider that the government may be corrupt. It has nothing to do with evidence. If i were to show you evidence, you'd just find a way to reject it.

On the contrary, Kamuix, corruption has everything to do with proof. You must show corruption to exist, and that requires evidence. Once again, you confuse your paranoia as being on par with evidence. It is not.

And when it does become widely known that 9/11 was an inside job, you'll probably just say something like "Well i already has a feeling it was but no one could ever show me the actual evidence so how could i have known?" Well the evidence you want is official evidence. So how is it possible for official evidence to be government official if the people running this would just deny it in such pathological ways. And as long as it's not admitted by them, it can't be proven to you. So when it does get proven and widely known.. what will you say?

Ah, nothing like wishful thinking (which also fails as a substitute for evidence). I'm surprised you didn't include some fire'n brimstone conclusion in order to see punishment brought unto the unbeliever.

As for the chatter regarding fantasies of the future days, the point is that you have no evidence regarding a conspiracy regarding 9/11. In fact, there is such an inadequacy in that department it really leaves nothing to comment on. The only thing that is plainly evident is that you believe in something, and do so uncritically. That something does not even have a shape to it; there is no narrative, no logic, no structure, no evidence, no timeline, no players - no nothing. What we have on exhibition is that you believe in something, that you are paranoid, and that government did "it" ("it" being the part for which there is no shape, no narrative, no logic, no structure, no evidence, no timeline and no players).

That's not much. In fact, it's pretty much nothing.

 

[Kamuix]

Be clear about this Kamuix, you have asserted that there is a conspiracy. You should back up your claims with proof. That you have consistently failed to back up your assertions indicates something - as in you have no proof and no grounds for proclaiming a conspiracy. You merely believe in the absence of any proof. You assume that your questions are sufficient to show proof of a conspiracy. They are not.

Yet you didn't answer the questions. And I've explained that by saying It's not about that anymore!

What I am telling you is that you are gullible and uncritical. You have indicated that you have no proof to back up your claims of a conspiracy. In fact, you can't even lay out the explanatory framework for the claim of a conspiracy - yet you persist in believing that there is a conspiracy. That shows a complete lack of critical judgement on your part. So yes, your self-assumed "open-mindedness" is akin to believing in the tooth fairy.

I am 100% sure that 9/11 was an inside job. I've said over and over again that what you demand as proof isn't even possible. And if i provided proof you wouldn't even consider it because you've already decided that.

By virtue of the fact that you've been trying to sell your beliefs regarding an imagined conspiracy, it is you who ought to start trying to think more clearly and critically about the diffuse stories that you presently buy into without an adequate measure of rudimentary analysis.

You keep throwing the same stupid point at me.. even after I've pointed it out now 3 times. You worded it differently each time but you dodge the actual things i say. You dodged the question and didn't address exactly what i was talking about and you still keep using the "you don't have evidence" point.

Other than you selling your favourite video, or engaging in a very weak appeal to authority, not once have you ever clearly refuted what you refer to as the "official" story. The reason being is that you constantly confuse your questions as adequate stand-ins for actual refutations. To be more blunt, you are not capable of understanding the significant distinctions.

True but i am 100% sure that what's in the official story is BS.

Tons of evidence? Yet you can't even pony up a gram to back up your claims. What's more, if you make a claim for the existence of evidence, it must fit into an overall framework in order for the evidence to make any sense. But as you have no evidence, no framework nor any operational theory, you still have nothing to offer.

We've gone beyond that stop referring to me not showing you evidence. You never considered the other side to begin with so you're destined to believe the government no matter what until it's publicly known. Which will then be done by the efforts of others.

As for your return to questions, I will once again point out to you that questions are not facts, nor are questions evidence of a conspiracy. Everyone can ask questions, but there is always a distinction between useful questions and baseless questions. It's quite evident that you can't - or don't want to - make the distinction. It would be a step to undermining your beliefs, and you are unwilling to let these beliefs go.

I feel i can make the distinction between good and bad questions, but do you really think they're bad questions? Why was their super-thermite found in the WTC dust? how is that a baseless question? why was all the footage of the supposed plane that crashed into the Pentagon confiscated and never shown if it's all they had to do to prove that planes actually hit the pentagon yet all that was ever shown was a 4 frame video that shows no plane? was that a baseless question? but why ask you.. you never answer questions i ask anyway.

And absolutely none of this has any bearing on your conspiracy theories regarding 9/11. It is nothing more than you attempting to engage in some superficial spin and faulty reasoning. Worse yet, it is non-sensical and merely indicative of your paranoia regarding government. To be clear: paranoia is not proof.

See you just dodged the points i made and went back to the same stupid point "you don't have evidence" that you keep shooting at me, it's all you have. Why not address me on why you won't even consider that the government may be corrupt? or the other points i made. You just keep dodging. you can't even answer the simple question "Do you believe the official story".

On the contrary, Kamuix, corruption has everything to do with proof. You must show corruption to exist, and that requires evidence. Once again, you confuse your paranoia as being on par with evidence. It is not.

We've gone past that. The point is you won't consider it.. you don't need proof to consider something fool. you just need an open minded thought.

Ah, nothing like wishful thinking (which also fails as a substitute for evidence). I'm surprised you didn't include some fire'n brimstone conclusion in order to see punishment brought unto the unbeliever.

Well in this case we'll just have to see won't we?

As for the chatter regarding fantasies of the future days, the point is that you have no evidence regarding a conspiracy regarding 9/11. In fact, there is such an inadequacy in that department it really leaves nothing to comment on. The only thing that is plainly evident is that you believe in something, and do so uncritically. That something does not even have a shape to it; there is no narrative, no logic, no structure, no evidence, no timeline, no players - no nothing. What we have on exhibition is that you believe in something, that you are paranoid, and that government did "it" ("it" being the part for which there is no shape, no narrative, no logic, no structure, no evidence, no timeline and no players).

I've told you enough throughout this thread. Whatever else you want to know is up to you to look up on the internet. why you doubt me subconsciously I'll never know. I have a clear idea of why the government did this. I am 100% sure the government did this. At least the people controlling the government, not the president himself. It's all setup. Global warming is a huge fraud and so is 9/11. There's tons of evidence out there. You don't need me I'm just trying to wake people up. If you refuse to consider it you won't get anywhere no matter how much evidence there is. It's funny how you quoted my questions and points but didn't address them at all but just went off on me not showing evidence on my assertion

 

[urbandreamer]

Kamuix, rather than wasting time arguing if it was a conspiracy or not, can you answer this question: What happened to the black boxes and what were their serial numbers?

 

[gei]

I believe the idea that September 11th was a conspiracy was perpetrated by space aliens.

Edit: on upon further examination of the evidence (none), I am CERTAIN that the idea that 9/11 is a conspiracy was perpetrated by space aliens, and anyone who doesn't believe me is naive. open your eyes people!! aliens are everywhere!!

 

[gristle]

Yet you didn't answer the questions. And I've explained that by saying It's not about that anymore!

Of course "it's about that." It's about you claiming something for which you have zero proof.

I am 100% sure that 9/11 was an inside job. I've said over and over again that what you demand as proof isn't even possible. And if i provided proof you wouldn't even consider it because you've already decided that.

Once again, you admit that there is no proof to back up your assertion of a conspiracy. In fact, other than some shallow and nebulous allusion to a belief about an "inside job," you have zero to stand on. Your decision to believe is based on nothing remotely tangible.

You keep throwing the same stupid point at me..

Because you simply don't get it.

You worded it differently each time but you dodge the actual things i say. You dodged the question and didn't address exactly what i was talking about and you still keep using the "you don't have evidence" point.

As I have stated over and over, since it is you who is claiming a conspiracy and a cover-up, your task is to both fully refute what you refer to as the "official story" and to provide actual verifiable proof regarding the structure, evidence, timeline and key players regarding a supposed conspiracy. You have failed to provide any of these things. All you offer is your belief, and in the absence of any substance other than your paranoia, it is a baseless belief.

We've gone past that. The point is you won't consider it.. you don't need proof to consider something fool. you just need an open minded thought.

Incorrect. It is your fantasy view of life that dictates that there is no need for evidence to support a charge of corruption. Fortunately, the world does not operate on the basis of your simplistic adherence to uncritical open-mindedness.

Well in this case we'll just have to see won't we?

And I don't see you providing any evidence. I don't see the so-called 9/11 "truth" movement providing a plausible theory either. I don't expect any change in that regard. But don't let that stop you from engaging in your fantasy life. Just don't confuse those fantasies for reality.

I've told you enough throughout this thread.

I've pointed out to you quite clearly that you've offered nothing - other than your statement of belief. That does not even remotely cut it as evidence. Not in the least.

Whatever else you want to know is up to you to look up on the internet.

You are either intellectually lazy or simply incapable of admitting that you have nothing to offer - or both. If you make a charge regarding a crime, it is your responsibility to provide the necessary evidence to support that charge. It is simply idiotic to suggest that I seek out the evidence you are incapable of providing.

why you doubt me subconsciously I'll never know.

Subconsciously? That's hilarious. I doubt you in a completely conscious manner. I doubt you fully and completely. You have completely failed to back up your assertions in any reasonable and verifiable manner. You operate on a simplistic belief and nothing more. You have zero.

I am 100% sure the government did this.

I'll rub it in: you have no proof; you simply have an unfounded belief. No structure, no evidence, no players. Nothing. Just your fantasy.

At least the people controlling the government, not the president himself.

Still a meaningless statement - and no proof, either.

There's tons of evidence out there.

You've provided none.

It's funny how you quoted my questions and points but didn't address them at all but just went off on me not showing evidence on my assertion

If you make a charge regarding a conspiracy, it is entirely up to you to support your assertion with evidence. You have failed to do so. What is funny is that you actually expect others to do what you can't, won't or are incapable of doing.

 

[Kamuix]

Lol ok you keep dodging me so how about this. Honestly i don't think you would go this far to argue if you weren't in denial to some degree. I don't mean in denial about 9/11 so much as you just realize you're purposely being ignorant to try and throw people back into the other direction. Let's face it.. We'll just have to wait and see. I have seen enough to know how government do things. You may just be to ignorant subconsciously to ever consider anything that's against what you've been conditioned to think. lol i think what's funny is how you don't get how amazingly ignorant you really are. There's tons of evidence out there. It's up to you from there:

http://www.911truth.org/

Here's an interesting interview on FOX with Jesse Ventura about his book:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yabfo7RCZMA

Here's another media coverage talking to Dylan Avery about the conference he went to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzf7p5T8OqE

He talks about how the ABC reporters who interviewed him were attacking him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV8HLbJrPlI

Kamuix, rather than wasting time arguing if it was a conspiracy or not, can you answer this question: What happened to the black boxes and what were their serial numbers?

Watch this episode of Conspiracy theory you you'll find out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uw5Bz-oL3w

 

[PinkLucy]

Here's the top 40 reasons from your 911truth site: http://911truth.org/article.php?story=20041221155307646
But reading through them, they're all pretty theoretical and "what if". Nothing concrete, nothing substantial, just musings about coincidences, etc. Nothing that is actual evidence.

 

[gei]

I actually thought this thread was a joke.. a la "is Elvis still alive".

Are there actually people on this forum who believe 9/11 is some massive 'conspiracy'?? I'd expect that type of nonsense from 15 year olds posting comments on youtube.... not here

 

[urbandreamer]

^Did you read the news recently about the Mumbai bombings last year? Turns out the thing was planned by a CIA dude, not Islamic terrorists as previously reported.

 

[urbandreamer]

Kamuix, the fact Jesse Ventura is a Cancer makes me distrust him. Yep, I'm into astrology, and I don't like Cancers. The guy is merely a late-comer to the 911 conspiracy scene, and is in it for the money and attention.

Besides, why would you believe anything "big media" tells you? Youtube is a censored, big media company.

 

[gristle]

Lol ok you keep dodging me so how about this. Honestly i don't think you would go this far to argue if you weren't in denial to some degree. I don't mean in denial about 9/11 so much as you just realize you're purposely being ignorant to try and throw people back into the other direction. Let's face it.. We'll just have to wait and see. I have seen enough to know how government do things. You may just be to ignorant subconsciously to ever consider anything that's against what you've been conditioned to think. lol i think what's funny is how you don't get how amazingly ignorant you really are. There's tons of evidence out there. It's up to you from there:

One day, with luck, you will read this post of yours and cringe with embarrassment.

First of all - and at the risk of boring everyone else - why don't you come up with evidence? The little websites and the shallow speculations made on them hardly constitute anything that could be construed as evidence. But then we've already established the fact that you don't know what evidence is, and even if you did, you still wouldn't have any.

Second, to suggest that I'm being ignorant while you proclaim a conspiracy that you simply can't prove is laughable. You are a true believer and nothing more. The big problem for you is that you've assumed special status for your beliefs. Sorry to inform you (again), but believing something does not make it real.

Third, concerning waiting and seeing, that amounts to an admission (once again) that you have nothing to offer in regards to providing evidence for your foggy conjectures regarding conspiracies and cover-ups. Rather than waiting and seeing, try offer up something to back up your conspiratorial musing - right now.

Fourth, regarding what you think about government, it's clear that you visualize government as some sort of conspiratorial, black helicopter-flying, UFO hiding men-in-black-staffed kind of organization. I can imagine you visualizing yourself as some kind of contemporary Fox Mulder X-Files persona seeking the truth you believe lies somewhere... out there.

Fifth, what's with the "subconscious" chatter? Do you even know what that means?

Sixth, regarding the "tons" of evidence you suggest is out there, why have you failed to provide any? And as for accusations on the ignorance of others, it's quite evident that this type of bluster is merely a front that is trying to hide the fact that you are running on empty. You have nothing to show. No evidence, no structure, no players, nothing. You have a nebulous paranoia. That paranoia is indicative of nothing more than you having some sort of personal issues regarding the world around you. You have nothing to support your claims, and the claims you present so lack structure, substance and coherence that they are essentially daydreams or fantasy.

 

[Kamuix]

I guess we'll just have to see Gristle. There are some really good arguments and evidence out there. I just don't feel up to gathering the evidence that you require atm. I'm sorry about going on about this in the way that i did.

Second, to suggest that I'm being ignorant while you proclaim a conspiracy that you simply can't prove is laughable. You are a true believer and nothing more. The big problem for you is that you've assumed special status for your beliefs. Sorry to inform you (again), but believing something does not make it real.

That's true. The reason i called you ingorant is not because of that. It's because you don't seem to have ever even considered it in the first place. I can see how through your point of view it would be laughable.

Third, concerning waiting and seeing, that amounts to an admission (once again) that you have nothing to offer in regards to providing evidence for your foggy conjectures regarding conspiracies and cover-ups. Rather than waiting and seeing, try offer up something to back up your conspiratorial musing - right now

LoL ok when i say wait and see.. I'm obviously not trying to prove anything Gristle. I'm just saying.. we'll wait and see, ok?

Fourth, regarding what you think about government, it's clear that you visualize government as some sort of conspiratorial, black helicopter-flying, UFO hiding men-in-black-staffed kind of organization. I can imagine you visualizing yourself as some kind of contemporary Fox Mulder X-Files persona seeking the truth you believe lies somewhere... out there.

I do now. I never used to.

Fifth, what's with the "subconscious" chatter? Do you even know what that means?

Yes i know what that means, i take interest in psychology.

Sixth, regarding the "tons" of evidence you suggest is out there, why have you failed to provide any? And as for accusations on the ignorance of others, it's quite evident that this type of bluster is merely a front that is trying to hide the fact that you are running on empty. You have nothing to show. No evidence, no structure, no players, nothing. You have a nebulous paranoia. That paranoia is indicative of nothing more than you having some sort of personal issues regarding the world around you. You have nothing to support your claims, and the claims you present so lack structure, substance and coherence that they are essentially daydreams or fantasy.

If only that were true..

Kamuix, the fact Jesse Ventura is a Cancer makes me distrust him. Yep, I'm into astrology, and I don't like Cancers. The guy is merely a late-comer to the 911 conspiracy scene, and is in it for the money and attention.

Besides, why would you believe anything "big media" tells you? Youtube is a censored, big media company.

lol well I urge you to at least give him a chance then. Yes but as of now they still allow people to post controversial things on there. Whereas the media normally won't, unless it's being propagandized in some sort of way.

Also 26 people voted that they believe it to be a cover up. Yet only a few people have occasionally come in and backed me up.. 5 against 1 kind of gives the illusion that I'm nuts. Which you're obviously going to say i am... I'm just hoping people will give it a chance first. I know a lot of you are having doubts about the official story of 9/11/Global warming etc..

EDIT: Here's an interesting Debate. Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AxYO21wE38&feature=related
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzF93XvueR8&feature=related
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKwYzlNdBeE&feature=related
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeV1BMiZqEw&feature=related

Now of course I'm not trying to prove anything by posting this debate. It's Just to get you thinking. Although Gristle will probably quote it and state that it's not evidence even though I'm not posting it as evidence, just to get you thinking if you're interested.

 

[wwwebster]

Whatever else you want to know is up to you to look up on the internet.

I found this. 4 minutes and 36 seconds of absolute gold:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jl3cKWuJVc