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saveoursubways (SOS)

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Oh, that's a neat trick.

Essentially you are saying you can't criticize our plan, because we haven't released it yet.

Sensible decision! It worked well enough for the Tories in the last election, not releasing their platform until after the debates .. :)
That's not what we're doing at all. We just don't want to put out a half-assed product. When we're happy that it's decent it'll be out. Keep in mind we're volunteers with dayjobs. We work on this when we can. We do realize we're up against the clock.
But we're doing thus sincerely not just to criticize TC or saywe told you so. You don't need a group for that.
 
So this grassroots organization is LESS open to discussion than Metrolinx was during the RTP process.... Interesting.
What's not transparent? We post up our ideas and every plan iteration in this thread. We wouldn't do that if we didn't want feedback or ideas. Of course that does not mean we'll agree with non-members all the time. But we do listen to the ideas and feedback and incorporate some of it.
 
New York City Subway Per Kilometre Cost

New York City is currently building a 'new' subway line in Manhattan that will function at least for its first decade as an extension of an existing line. This phase of the line will include three new stations and approximately five kilometres of new double track (no express track). The current budget is over a billion US dollars per kilometre. The weblog posting below describes some costs, along with costs from projects in similar large cities. This high cost is no doubt a large reason why New York has built no new subway lines in approximately sixty years:
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/
 
What's not transparent? We post up our ideas and every plan iteration in this thread. We wouldn't do that if we didn't want feedback or ideas. Of course that does not mean we'll agree with non-members all the time. But we do listen to the ideas and feedback and incorporate some of it.

And yet there was a request from a key SOS member just above to NOT have feedback:

How could we have contradictions in our plan if you haven't even seen our plan yet? Again, you're assuming that we're assuming.

It's like criticizing an artist on their painting or piece when the painting or piece isn't even finished yet...
This is a pretty clear request for all criticisms of your plan to go away until the plan is done. You're not transparent if you post information and then expect only positive comments in return. I understand it was specifically aimed at one member in one circumstance, but the underlying tone is one of not accepting criticism.
 
Post a link to your report so I could start reading it. If you do so, I will be cool

You'll need to wait a day or so. I just got some feedback back from the group, and I'm doing some changes to sections right now, so showing you the most recently-posted version would not be an accurate representation.

I can however show you this, which is an FAQ I wrote up yesterday to post on our website:

Debunking Move Toronto

Q: Won’t this plan cost more than Transit City?

A: Transit City is a 15 year plan, projected to cost $15 billion. The 15 year portion of Move Toronto will be cost-neutral to Transit City, also costing $15 billion. Not included in either of those estimates are the Downtown Relief Line (DRL), the Spadina Subway extension, or the Yonge Subway extension. They are being funded independently, but are included in Move Toronto.

For the same cost as Transit City, Move Toronto will provide true, grade-separated rapid transit to many areas of Toronto.


Q: Will Transit City help reduce congestion at Bloor-Yonge station, or on the subways leading into downtown?

A: No. There is nothing in the Transit City plan that will reduce congestion at Bloor-Yonge station, or on the Yonge and University lines south of Bloor. If Transit City succeeds at boosting ridership, it will likely make the congestion even worse.

However, Move Toronto is proposing the Downtown Relief Line (DRL), a wider U-shaped line passing through downtown which, according to Metrolinx, will take approximately 17,000 rush hour passengers off the Yonge-University-Spadina subway south of Bloor.


Q: Will Transit City help reduce congestion on the subway network at all?

A: No. The entire Transit City plan is based around dumping LRT riders onto the existing subway network. Under Transit City, there are no new subway lines or extensions inside the 416. This will only increase congestion on existing subway lines that are already congested. In essence, Transit City is a $15 billion project to make it more efficient for people to reach a backlog on the subways.

Move Toronto proposes several new subway lines, which will have several advantages. They will relieve the existing lines by providing passengers more rapid transit options. They will also provide service to areas that are currently under-served. They will also mean shorter travel times on your local bus in order to reach the subway system.


Q: Aren’t LRTs being built in big cities all over Europe?

A: Yes, they are. But nearly all of these European cities already have well developed subway networks, covering nearly the entire city. These LRT lines are being built to ‘fill in the gaps’ in the subway network. Toronto does not have an equivalently large subway network, and LRTs are not a substitute for subways. They are slower, can hold fewer people, and are susceptible to red lights, traffic accidents, and inclement weather.

LRT lines are well suited for secondary corridors in the city, once the subway network has been fully developed and is suitable for a city of Toronto’s size, not before.


Q: Isn’t BRT less effective than LRT?

A: In the case of many of the proposed Transit City lines, no. Many of those lines will have relatively low off-peak usage, resulting in wait times as long as 10 minutes. Move Toronto includes BRT lines instead of LRT lines. Because buses can hold fewer people than LRT trains can, they will run more frequently, resulting in less wait time.

The BRT lines that will be used in Move Toronto are also designed to carry people on short, 5-15 minute trips to the closest subway stop. This is very different from Transit City, in which passengers may be on an LRT train for over half an hour before finally reaching a subway stop.


Q: Aren’t curbside cut-outs less effective than dedicated lanes?

A: Yes, they are marginally less effective. However, most of the BRT lines proposed in Move Toronto are on suburban arterial roads, which by and large have good traffic flows. Normal buses are reduced in speed because they need to wait in line (or a cue) when stopped at a red light near an intersection. A cue jump lane allows the bus to enter its own lane near the intersection, so that it can load and unload passengers while waiting at the red light. This will reduce the amount of time wasted at red lights.

While this is slightly less efficient than a dedicated lane along the entire length of the road, it is magnitudes less expensive. The money saved from only using cue jump lanes can go to funding the construction of more subways, the backbone of any transit system.


Q: Why are some of the lines on the map dashed, and some solid?

A: The solid lines signify that those sections of the lines will be built within the 15 year timeframe. The dashed lines signify they will be built in the 25 year timeframe, and will be run as BRT lines until the subway is operational.
 
This is a pretty clear request for all criticisms of your plan to go away until the plan is done. You're not transparent if you post information and then expect only positive comments in return. I understand it was specifically aimed at one member in one circumstance, but the underlying tone is one of not accepting criticism.

I intended the comment to make the distinction between criticism and constructive criticism. "That painting looks terrible" vs "If you did this, it could really help bring some more colour to this area".
 
I intended the comment to make the distinction between criticism and constructive criticism. "That painting looks terrible" vs "If you did this, it could really help bring some more colour to this area".
Your statement read "How can we have contradictions if you haven't seen our plan". This wasn't a statement about constructive criticism, this was a statement about attention to details (e.g. contradictions) in advance of the release of your report. Some contradictions are indeed discernable from information above (e.g. your funding assumptions as posted earlier today).

I'll accept that you meant it in terms of constructive criticism but it did NOT read that way.
 
The SOS folks have been trolling on the threads about the LRT construction projects for months (though I admit it's improved a bit of late).

I'm speaking for myself here. Personally, I'd welcome an LRT down Sheppard if transfers were short and the route ran like it did for me on St. Clair yesterday, but all the same I enjoy riding on the subway more, and it makes sense to extend the Sheppard line past being more than a stub, which is basically what it is now.

Let me get it across right now: I'm not anti-LRT. I've liked the Eglinton crosstown LRT and Don Mills LRT proposals for quite some time, and Mammoliti's idea of a subway down Jane instead of an LRT is absurd. Also I think the DRL line, whenever it comes, is cool but a bit dodgy and it needs to be fine tuned. I do however support both the Yonge and Spadina extensions and a possible B-D eastern extension replacing the SRT.

I support both subway and LRT, where they're needed. Sheppard is really where I'm torn because I think both aspects could fit, but I'm not going to shout repeatedly at gweed and KeithZ to scramble up a half-assed report so that I can see the benefits of a Sheppard extension quickly, like Juan is.

With the way the TTC is going about things right now, though, I'm not sure if the quality of either subway or LRT will be all that great.
 
You'll need to wait a day or so. I just got some feedback back from the group, and I'm doing some changes to sections right now, so showing you the most recently-posted version would not be an accurate representation.

I can however show you this, which is an FAQ I wrote up yesterday to post on our website:

Debunking Move Toronto

Q: Won’t this plan cost more than Transit City?

A: Transit City is a 15 year plan, projected to cost $15 billion. The 15 year portion of Move Toronto will be cost-neutral to Transit City, also costing $15 billion. Not included in either of those estimates are the Downtown Relief Line (DRL), the Spadina Subway extension, or the Yonge Subway extension. They are being funded independently, but are included in Move Toronto.

For the same cost as Transit City, Move Toronto will provide true, grade-separated rapid transit to many areas of Toronto.


Q: Will Transit City help reduce congestion at Bloor-Yonge station, or on the subways leading into downtown?

A: No. There is nothing in the Transit City plan that will reduce congestion at Bloor-Yonge station, or on the Yonge and University lines south of Bloor. If Transit City succeeds at boosting ridership, it will likely make the congestion even worse.

However, Move Toronto is proposing the Downtown Relief Line (DRL), a wider U-shaped line passing through downtown which, according to Metrolinx, will take approximately 17,000 rush hour passengers off the Yonge-University-Spadina subway south of Bloor.


Q: Will Transit City help reduce congestion on the subway network at all?

A: No. The entire Transit City plan is based around dumping LRT riders onto the existing subway network. Under Transit City, there are no new subway lines or extensions inside the 416. This will only increase congestion on existing subway lines that are already congested. In essence, Transit City is a $15 billion project to make it more efficient for people to reach a backlog on the subways.

Move Toronto proposes several new subway lines, which will have several advantages. They will relieve the existing lines by providing passengers more rapid transit options. They will also provide service to areas that are currently under-served. They will also mean shorter travel times on your local bus in order to reach the subway system.


Q: Aren’t LRTs being built in big cities all over Europe?

A: Yes, they are. But nearly all of these European cities already have well developed subway networks, covering nearly the entire city. These LRT lines are being built to ‘fill in the gaps’ in the subway network. Toronto does not have an equivalently large subway network, and LRTs are not a substitute for subways. They are slower, can hold fewer people, and are susceptible to red lights, traffic accidents, and inclement weather.

LRT lines are well suited for secondary corridors in the city, once the subway network has been fully developed and is suitable for a city of Toronto’s size, not before.


Q: Isn’t BRT less effective than LRT?

A: In the case of many of the proposed Transit City lines, no. Many of those lines will have relatively low off-peak usage, resulting in wait times as long as 10 minutes. Move Toronto includes BRT lines instead of LRT lines. Because buses can hold fewer people than LRT trains can, they will run more frequently, resulting in less wait time.

The BRT lines that will be used in Move Toronto are also designed to carry people on short, 5-15 minute trips to the closest subway stop. This is very different from Transit City, in which passengers may be on an LRT train for over half an hour before finally reaching a subway stop.


Q: Aren’t curbside cut-outs less effective than dedicated lanes?

A: Yes, they are marginally less effective. However, most of the BRT lines proposed in Move Toronto are on suburban arterial roads, which by and large have good traffic flows. Normal buses are reduced in speed because they need to wait in line (or a cue) when stopped at a red light near an intersection. A cue jump lane allows the bus to enter its own lane near the intersection, so that it can load and unload passengers while waiting at the red light. This will reduce the amount of time wasted at red lights.

While this is slightly less efficient than a dedicated lane along the entire length of the road, it is magnitudes less expensive. The money saved from only using cue jump lanes can go to funding the construction of more subways, the backbone of any transit system.


Q: Why are some of the lines on the map dashed, and some solid?

A: The solid lines signify that those sections of the lines will be built within the 15 year timeframe. The dashed lines signify they will be built in the 25 year timeframe, and will be run as BRT lines until the subway is operational.


I'll give SOS credit for the FAQs that were designed! Sounds good!!
 
I'll give SOS credit for the FAQs that were designed! Sounds good!!

Thank you. It was my intention to write it in language that can be understood by non-transit enthusiasts, while still getting the message across. My intention is to have this posted on the SOS website as a quick read for people who don't want to read the full report.
 
Debunking Move Toronto

Q: Won’t this plan cost more than Transit City?

A: Transit City is a 15 year plan, projected to cost $15 billion. The 15 year portion of Move Toronto will be cost-neutral to Transit City, also costing $15 billion. Not included in either of those estimates are the Downtown Relief Line (DRL), the Spadina Subway extension, or the Yonge Subway extension. They are being funded independently, but are included in Move Toronto.

For the same cost as Transit City, Move Toronto will provide true, grade-separated rapid transit to many areas of Toronto.

I have a little issue with these numbers, not all of the TC lines are funded or even received final approval. You can't cancel unfunded projects infavour of other unfunded projects and claim to not be spending more money.
Q: Will Transit City help reduce congestion at Bloor-Yonge station, or on the subways leading into downtown?

A: No. There is nothing in the Transit City plan that will reduce congestion at Bloor-Yonge station, or on the Yonge and University lines south of Bloor. If Transit City succeeds at boosting ridership, it will likely make the congestion even worse.

However, Move Toronto is proposing the Downtown Relief Line (DRL), a wider U-shaped line passing through downtown which, according to Metrolinx, will take approximately 17,000 rush hour passengers off the Yonge-University-Spadina subway south of Bloor.

Ridership and Bloor-Yonge crowding will increase regardless of transit city, it should not be blamed for it.

Where is that 17000 figure from? If it is from the RTP then it may also include riders who are diverted by REX GO lines.
 
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I have a little issue with these numbers, not all of the TC lines are funded or even received final approval. You can't cancel unfunded projects infavour of other unfunded projects and claim to not be spending more money.

If it's on the Transit City map and website, we're considering it as part of Transit City, regardless of if it has received final approval/funding or not. In fact, in our report we make a distinction between funded and unfunded projects ($8 billion funded vs $7 billion unfunded). We divide our Phase 1 into 2 parts based on that. That way, if the funding for the 2nd part of TC dissapears, we still have projects that will be use the first part of the TC money (Eglinton Central, Sheppard East, and Bloor-Danforth East). Those 3 combined will cost approximately $8.07 billion.


Ridership and Bloor-Yonge crowding will increase regardless of transit city, it should not be blamed for it.

Where is that 17000 figure from? If it is from the RTP then it may also include riders who are diverted by REX GO lines.

But if Transit City does it's job and increases ridership, it will only compound the problem. That's the point we're trying to make.

And that stat is a Metrolinx estimate, which was stated in a presentation on the Yonge extension (from December 2008 I believe, but I could be mistaken on the exact date). I used that number in my article in the Ontario Planning Journal about the DRL as well.
 
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