saveoursubways (SOS)

[DavidH]

Either way, that portion of the plan was put in as an "if Mississauga wants it". It's not an integral part of the plan, and it hasn't really been factored into any of the budgeting items that Toronto will have to pay. So if unless you live in Mississauga, you shouldn't really be complaining about the expense, seeing as how it won't be your city paying for it anyways.

This is an unsupportable statement, given that we are still waiting for a funding plan from Metrolinx for future projects. We have NO idea how these projects will be paid for, so it is certainly possible that money for a given project might come from Toronto residents. Further, regardless of the plan, we will likely have a roughly fixed pot of money available, so adding a line means less money in other areas.

The idea that each municipality is solely responsible for its large scale projects is one of the very things that Metrolinx was set up to eliminate.

 

[gweed123]

This is an unsupportable statement, given that we are still waiting for a funding plan from Metrolinx for future projects. We have NO idea how these projects will be paid for, so it is certainly possible that money for a given project might come from Toronto residents. Further, regardless of the plan, we will likely have a roughly fixed pot of money available, so adding a line means less money in other areas.

The idea that each municipality is solely responsible for its large scale projects is one of the very things that Metrolinx was set up to eliminate.

Large-scale projects will be funded through a mix of municipal, provincial, and federal (sometimes) money. So no, each municipality is not soley responsible for their own projects. But at the same time, I really don't think that there will be city-to-city payments in terms of capital funding for projects.

Yes, there may be some sort of a payment plan in terms of operations, but in terms of capital, no. Any subway inside of Mississauga would be paid for by the City of Mississauga, the province, and possibly the feds. Mississauga and Toronto would then likely work out a maintenance on operations agreement for the subway extension. It would be very similar to what Toronto did with Vaughan. The city of Toronto is (capitally) not paying for any of the subway north of Steeles.

 

[DavidH]

Large-scale projects will be funded through a mix of municipal, provincial, and federal (sometimes) money. So no, each municipality is not soley responsible for their own projects. But at the same time, I really don't think that there will be city-to-city payments in terms of capital funding for projects.

Yes, there may be some sort of a payment plan in terms of operations, but in terms of capital, no. Any subway inside of Mississauga would be paid for by the City of Mississauga, the province, and possibly the feds. Mississauga and Toronto would then likely work out a maintenance on operations agreement for the subway extension. It would be very similar to what Toronto did with Vaughan. The city of Toronto is (capitally) not paying for any of the subway north of Steeles.

Again, you're assuming this without any evidence, and in contradiction to the way things work now. Current Metrolinx projects have NO municipal funding. For the example, the province is paying 100% of the Eglinton line. Granted these are not subway lines per se (although Eglinton is certainly costed in the range as many possible subway extensions), but it's clear that new funding models are being used and are expected to continue.

The Spadina extension is a pre-Metrolinx project so it can't be used as guidance here.

I'm not saying that municipal involvement won't happen, but it can't be used to wave away costs associated with an MCC subway. If, say, Metrolinx were to end up deriving funding from gas and congestion taxes and then allocating based on a needs determination, a decision to build that subway might have a very real effect on what gets built elsewhere.

SOS's plan should be based on good planning and not "if Mississauga wants this component, they'll pay for it, so don't worry about it". It's either justiable and a part of the core plan, or it's not and should not be in the plan at all.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Again, you're assuming this without any evidence, and in contradiction to the way things work now.

...and this is my major issue with SOS's plan. Their plan is full of assumptions (no hard facts), and contradictions

 

[gweed123]

...and this is my major issue with SOS's plan. Their plan is full of assumptions (no hard facts), and contradictions

Oh the irony... you haven't even READ the plan! So you're making assumptions that we're making assumptions... And I know you're going to say "well what has been posted in the forum would lead me to believe that". And my response to that is "the forum is the forum, it isn't binding nor is it a hollistic vision".

 

[kEiThZ]

...and this is my major issue with SOS's plan. Their plan is full of assumptions (no hard facts), and contradictions

Can you post a link to the final version of the plan? And please do tell what our assumptions and contradictions are.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Can you post a link to the final version of the plan? And please do tell what our assumptions and contradictions are.

I was talking about the contradictions in what SOS members have said in this thread...not the report! If the report is not ready, how could I read it and state something like that?

 

[DavidH]

Oh the irony... you haven't even READ the plan! So you're making assumptions that we're making assumptions... And I know you're going to say "well what has been posted in the forum would lead me to believe that". And my response to that is "the forum is the forum, it isn't binding nor is it a hollistic vision".

When you start assuming that municipalities will be paying capital costs, you ARE making assumptions. You're assuming that the funding model will not only change from the way it is today, it will change in the way you want. I have no problem with that as an assumption, but it needs to be clearly understood that it's an assumption, particularly when you start justifying "optional" parts of the plan based on it.

 

[Inkarnate]

I was talking about the contradictions in what SOS members have said in this thread...not the report! If the report is not ready, how could I read it and state something like that?

Contradictions?

 

[gweed123]

I was talking about the contradictions in what SOS members have said in this thread...not the report! If the report is not ready, how could I read it?

How could we have contradictions in our plan if you haven't even seen our plan yet? Again, you're assuming that we're assuming.

It's like criticizing an artist on their painting or piece when the painting or piece isn't even finished yet...

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

How could we have contradictions in our plan if you haven't even seen our plan yet?

your final plan is going to be pretty much what you have been talking about to death in this thread. The only difference is you will have facts to back up what you say. Send me a link to your plan

 

[nfitz]

Oh, that's a neat trick.

Essentially you are saying you can't criticize our plan, because we haven't released it yet.

Sensible decision! It worked well enough for the Tories in the last election, not releasing their platform until after the debates ..

 

[DavidH]

Oh, that's a neat trick.

Essentially you are saying you can't criticize our plan, because we haven't released it yet.

So this grassroots organization is LESS open to discussion than Metrolinx was during the RTP process.... Interesting.

 

[kEiThZ]

I was talking about the contradictions in what SOS members have said in this thread...not the report! If the report is not ready, how could I read it and state something like that?

Of course we won't all agree. Each one of us will have a different view on what's needed.This forum was supposed to be for debate so we could sound out ideas and reach some consensus within the group and with those on the outside. Trolling like yours has hijacked the thread and forced us to keep debate restricted. As for the report not being ready. Well, it's not (guess Juan's timeline is just not important to SOS). So there's no more need for you to troll here till it's out.

 

[gweed123]

Oh, that's a neat trick.

Essentially you are saying you can't criticize our plan, because we haven't released it yet.

Sensible decision! It worked well enough for the Tories in the last election, not releasing their platform until after the debates ..

No, I'm just saying you can't make assumptions that we're not backing what we say up with facts, because obviously im not going to provide a bibliography for everything thats said on here.