Dan416
Senior Member
I'm sorry but...what?
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saveoursubways (SOS)
- Thread starter kEiThZ
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I'm sorry but...what?
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Look, I think "I'm sorry but... what?" is a lousy slogan for this group. You should change it.
Dan416
Senior Member
kEiThZ
Superstar
We'll need a North-South LRT in the west end to mirror Don Mills. No? Right now we've still got Jane on the map. And as others have suggested, Weston's got higher ridership today. So that's why I figured that corridor.
Dan416
Senior Member
In regards to SOS, an LRT out west is beyond our scope.
As for Don Mills, as per the SOS handbook, the Don Mills LRT should be replaced with a continuation of the DRL to complement the original "DRL" in the west side (aka the University-Spadina line).
The DRL should go from Sheppard & Don Mills to Pape to Union and then to Dundas West, in my opinion. Up to Weston will be served by GO, but I wouldn't be opposed to the DRL continuing northwest to the airport or something. That western leg of the DRL is tricky given all the money being thrown at the Blue-22/GO connection.
Ryan
New Member
honestly I think you guys should simplify your message- don't worry about alignments or stations or whatever.
Finish Sheppard and B-D; DRL Pape to downtown. Thats all you need to worry about for now.
And actually, maybe instead of pushing for individual projects, we need to get some sort of sustained funding, say $1B a year, to create some sort of subway/tunneling industry in the city.
Finish Sheppard and B-D; DRL Pape to downtown. Thats all you need to worry about for now.
And actually, maybe instead of pushing for individual projects, we need to get some sort of sustained funding, say $1B a year, to create some sort of subway/tunneling industry in the city.
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All the more reason to demand it now. That way the corridor only has to be ripped up once. And I don't see it running parallel to GO as an issue. If fare integration is introduced, it will make a very nice express/local combo. Until then, they can run independently quite efficiently.
nfitz
Superstar
... about 25-km of subway - that's almost the same length as the Danforth line.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
All the way up to Sheppard is a little crazy probably. Eglinton is more realistic. Pape to downtown is the really important piece.
Dan416
Senior Member
Well it doesn't have to be all done at once
Phase I would be Pape to downtown. Then to Eglinton at least. But I think with the planned LRT to Don Mills the DRL should go to Don Mills instead.
But I'm more concerned with the STC subways right now.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I think we are lurching from one extreme to the other here. We went from too much compromise to almost no compromise.
Let's go back to the original principles here: fewer transfers, faster speeds and more cross-town service....and some effort to get value for money (since we don't believe an all LRT plan is good value).
That requires us to give the most priority to east-west routes. That's why Sheppard and the Bloor-Danforth need to be finished till STC. And it's also why Eglinton needs to go as far east as possible from the airport.
North-South is a little less of a priority. We need LRT in some corridors to facilitate north-south movement to get riders to those riders into cross-town routes.
The way I see it, we have about 15 billion to play with. That's the real cost of Transfer City. I would suggest that buys us about 45 kms of subways, or 200 kms of Transit City style LRT or 1500 km of BRT...or some combination thereof.
Here's my accounting:
Sheppard subway (Downsview and STC extensions): 13 km
Bloor-Danforth extension: 5 km
Eglinton (Pearson to Don Mills): 25 km
DRL East (Don Mills and Eglinton to Union): 12 km
I would also add a Progress Malvern LRT in Scarborough to provide coverage to northern Scarborough (5km of LRT), a Albion/Weston/Keele LRT (19 km), Don Mills LRT (10 km) the Kingston BRT (Main stn to Durham) of about 18 km, the Ellesmere BRT of about 7km.
Totals:
Subway - 55 km @ 300M/km = 16.5 billion
LRT - 34 km @ 80 M/km = 2.72 billion
BRT- 25 km @ 10 M/km = 0.25 billion
In my books that's a 19.5 billion dollar plan that should take us about 20-25 years to complete.In a Phase 2, I would probably add the DRL West, extend the DRL East northward, finish Eglinton right till Kingston and add bus lanes on every major artery in Toronto.
To me, this a reasonable plan, that's long term, provides values for money, reduces transfers, increases speed and cross-town access. It also front-loads subway construction to our present time before inflation makes it absolutely unaffordable and leaves the lesser stuff (BRT, LRT) for later.
Let's go back to the original principles here: fewer transfers, faster speeds and more cross-town service....and some effort to get value for money (since we don't believe an all LRT plan is good value).
That requires us to give the most priority to east-west routes. That's why Sheppard and the Bloor-Danforth need to be finished till STC. And it's also why Eglinton needs to go as far east as possible from the airport.
North-South is a little less of a priority. We need LRT in some corridors to facilitate north-south movement to get riders to those riders into cross-town routes.
The way I see it, we have about 15 billion to play with. That's the real cost of Transfer City. I would suggest that buys us about 45 kms of subways, or 200 kms of Transit City style LRT or 1500 km of BRT...or some combination thereof.
Here's my accounting:
Sheppard subway (Downsview and STC extensions): 13 km
Bloor-Danforth extension: 5 km
Eglinton (Pearson to Don Mills): 25 km
DRL East (Don Mills and Eglinton to Union): 12 km
I would also add a Progress Malvern LRT in Scarborough to provide coverage to northern Scarborough (5km of LRT), a Albion/Weston/Keele LRT (19 km), Don Mills LRT (10 km) the Kingston BRT (Main stn to Durham) of about 18 km, the Ellesmere BRT of about 7km.
Totals:
Subway - 55 km @ 300M/km = 16.5 billion
LRT - 34 km @ 80 M/km = 2.72 billion
BRT- 25 km @ 10 M/km = 0.25 billion
In my books that's a 19.5 billion dollar plan that should take us about 20-25 years to complete.In a Phase 2, I would probably add the DRL West, extend the DRL East northward, finish Eglinton right till Kingston and add bus lanes on every major artery in Toronto.
To me, this a reasonable plan, that's long term, provides values for money, reduces transfers, increases speed and cross-town access. It also front-loads subway construction to our present time before inflation makes it absolutely unaffordable and leaves the lesser stuff (BRT, LRT) for later.
nfitz
Superstar
It won't change things massively; but I think the BRT mey be too low. Are there estimates what BRT has cost elsewhere? The Mississauga design, and Ottawa?
I know the York BRT was cheap, but it was a fairly unique situation.
Rainforest
Senior Member
A few thoughts:
1) Instead of Albion - Weston - Keele LRT, it makes sense to keep Finch West LRT as per current plan. It will provide a faster connection from North Etobicoke to subway (at Finch / Keele). And, it will probably be much cheaper to build, as old parts of Weston and Keele do not have room for LRT lanes.
2) If you manage to get Eglinton subway that connects to both Spadina and Yonge, you can afford to defer "Sheppard to Downsview" - that's $1.2 B off the price tag. Eglinton would provide both a passenger connection and a non-revenue linkage between the two N-S subway lines.
3) "Bus lanes on every major artery" might cost a lot more than it seems - since many streets would have to be widened to 6 lanes.
1) Instead of Albion - Weston - Keele LRT, it makes sense to keep Finch West LRT as per current plan. It will provide a faster connection from North Etobicoke to subway (at Finch / Keele). And, it will probably be much cheaper to build, as old parts of Weston and Keele do not have room for LRT lanes.
2) If you manage to get Eglinton subway that connects to both Spadina and Yonge, you can afford to defer "Sheppard to Downsview" - that's $1.2 B off the price tag. Eglinton would provide both a passenger connection and a non-revenue linkage between the two N-S subway lines.
3) "Bus lanes on every major artery" might cost a lot more than it seems - since many streets would have to be widened to 6 lanes.
Dan416
Senior Member
keith i have no problem with compromise, i just think LRT is best left out of the plan. things are just getting way too complicated
Fresh Start
Banned
That's what I keep telling you guys but you're not listening. I find it absurd that BRT that can cover more mileage, penetrate more parts of the city, and cost a wack load less, time again is taking a back seat to light-rail. Remember folks, LRT tracks are affixed so the coverage area can never go beyond where they are laid out, lest we invest a significant amount greater in the future to expand on them. The mutabilty of bus rapid transit is such that the coverage moves out to where the demand levels are, and not be stuck taking a scenci route of suburbia; parklands, subdivisions, strip malls and the like. Then there's the whole false dichotomy the TTC has duped the public with regarding carrying capacity. BRT is perfectly capable of carrying passenger loads of 10,000pphpd, in many world cities it exceeds that level on a daily basis.
So ask yourself 200 kms LRT affixed to a few limited corridors (much of which's ROW will be through low-density sprawl) or > 2000 kms BRT that can span the 416, target several major nodes along a single one-way trip and even penetrate the 905 in areas, which one's better?
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