saveoursubways (SOS)

[Fresh Start]

I am just comparing examples of both modes with similar total daily riderships to demonstrate that buses cost significantly less to operate even in those instances where a handful more drivers are needed to manage the fleet. The congestion or lack thereof of the arteries in question is not what was asked of me. Also since when has Finch East and Don Mills acquired dedicated bus lanes? They're both still subject to mitigating traffic same as the streetcar, although you've proven two points that should be abundantly clear: that the downtown core desperately needs another subway line to lessen the public's dependency of streetcars and that buses routed along suburban arterials would operate more efficiently if segregated from the multi-purpose lanes of traffic.

 

[kettal]

Also since when has Finch East and Don Mills acquired dedicated bus lanes? They're both still subject to mitigating traffic same as the streetcar,

Don Mills has had HOV lanes for at least 15 years, probably more. Finch East, to my knowledge, does not have HOV lanes, but has more travel lanes, less on-street parking, and a higher speed limit in comparison to King Street.

although you've proven two points that should be abundantly clear: that the downtown core desperately needs another subway line to lessen the public's dependency of streetcars and that buses routed along suburban arterials would operate more efficiently if segregated from the multi-purpose lanes of traffic.

Wow! Whod a thunk it!!

 

[kEiThZ]

I would just like to say that the recent comment post that was made by Andrew on Steve Munro's website was NOT me. Just wanted to clear the air on that one.

Might wanna go on his website and say that.

 

[Fresh Start]

Finch West, about 3 years ago.

You call fixing the damage of an unexpected flash-flood washing a road bridge away that affected all vehicular traffic running along Finch, not just buses, road maintenance done specifically only for buses? WTF? It's nice to note that the bus service never ceased as result of that reconstruction which only took a few months compared to 4 years for the 512 and several months every year for various streetcar lines in recent memory. And bus service kept on moving because buses can freely enter and exit a ROW at will, meanwhile a streetcar is confined to wherever the tracks are laid so if the bridge goes, kablooey, so too does the streetcar service. Remind me again why we're purposing light-rail through such a precarious stretch again? Also nice to know that the 512 Replacement bus ran every 90 seconds most of the day and now we've reverted back to up to 10 minutes waits for the streetcar. Thanks a lot TTC.

 

[Fresh Start]

Don Mills has had HOV lanes for at least 15 years, probably more. Finch East, to my knowledge, does not have HOV lanes, but has more travel lanes, less on-street parking, and a higher speed limit in comparison to King Street.

Wow! Whod a thunk it!!

HOV lanes that still share the roadway with other vehicles. HOV lanes that still require buses to leave said lanes to pick-up/drop-off passngers then try to reenter weaving through other traffic. Thanks for playing. Oh and it does go with reminding that the DRL and BRT in suburbia are needed when the mayor and TTC backed by voices like yours wants to replicate the failures of the streetcar system onto every city ward.

 

[Fresh Start]

Might wanna go on his website and say that.

Aw, we know that it's election time when conspiracy theorists are quick to lay accusations at the feet of easy targets. Some arrogant person says something anti-LRT on a pro-LRT website, they must be affiliated with SOS.

 

[nfitz]

Must I spoonfeed you? Page 15 of the pdf:
" • Cost – Recent estimates of LRT technology are in the order of $40 million per kilometre, while subways cost approximately $220 million per kilometre (capital costs and vehicles included, but not property, yards or streetscaping)."

Thanks - I hadn't realised that $220 million per killometre was the currect cost for the underground section of Eglinton ... I thought that was some historical text referring to subway construction costs from a few years ago.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Assuming you're not being sarcastic... Is there not a serious double standard here?! If anything, LRT requires higher construction costs than subway due to bigger tunnels, but LRT tunnels can be built for $220 million while subway tunnels start at $300 million? This is a perfect example of not going apeshit on station design and just building run of the mill stations instead could actually bring subway construction down tremendously.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

^^ Assuming you're not being sarcastic... Is there not a serious double standard here?! If anything, LRT requires higher construction costs than subway due to bigger tunnels, but LRT tunnels can be built for $220 million while subway tunnels start at $300 million? This is a perfect example of not going apeshit on station design and just building run of the mill stations instead could actually bring subway construction down tremendously.

Here here!!!
+1

 

[nfitz]

^^ Assuming you're not being sarcastic... Is there not a serious double standard here?! If anything, LRT requires higher construction costs than subway due to bigger tunnels, but LRT tunnels can be built for $220 million while subway tunnels start at $300 million? This is a perfect example of not going apeshit on station design and just building run of the mill stations instead could actually bring subway construction down tremendously.

Your reference to costing of the tunnel versus surface portion of the LRT section is nothing more than a reference to the pre-Transit City costing figures of subway versus LRT that TTC have been throwing around since at least 2007. It's not Eglinton-specific.

LRT doesn't require larger tunnels; the implementation TTC has been pushing requires larger tunnels. There are other ICTS systems that could be done with much smaller tunnels!

 

[Inkarnate]

^^ Assuming you're not being sarcastic... Is there not a serious double standard here?! If anything, LRT requires higher construction costs than subway due to bigger tunnels, but LRT tunnels can be built for $220 million while subway tunnels start at $300 million? This is a perfect example of not going apeshit on station design and just building run of the mill stations instead could actually bring subway construction down tremendously.

Agree fully. I like big fancy stations as much as the next person, but all-in-all I generally prefer the plain smaller ones; cost less to build and maintain, and they're easier to navigate.

 

[Dan416]

HOV lanes that still share the roadway with other vehicles. HOV lanes that still require buses to leave said lanes to pick-up/drop-off passngers then try to reenter weaving through other traffic. Thanks for playing. Oh and it does go with reminding that the DRL and BRT in suburbia are needed when the mayor and TTC backed by voices like yours wants to replicate the failures of the streetcar system onto every city ward.

I don't consider streetcars a total failure. I mean, they're great for tourists if you have nowhere to be and don't mind plodding along. But for a commuter, they're pretty sad. That said, I don't think streetcars are any worse than buses except that if one breaks down, the others can't just drive around them. They do offer greater capacity after all. But the routes that have a lot of people using the streetcars also happen to be the ones that are the most congested, so they move slowly. Very slowly. And a bus would be just as slow. I'm not against streetcars. The city that my grandparents lived in in Poland only had streetcars, but it had tons of them. However, in Toronto they can't be the backbone of the system. Unless you're going to go all out and fully grade separate them, I don't see the point, because they'll be just as slow as before, and no faster than the buses they're replacing.

 

[gweed123]

There has to be a delicate balance though. Yes, smaller stations are cheaper, but there are certain stations along the line that need to be bigger. St. George is a perfect example of a station that, in light of the current passenger demands, was underbuilt. Determine which stations along the route will be stations that handle a large amount of people (transfer stations, stations that connect to major bus/BRT/LRT routes, etc), and build them a bit bigger. But keep the less-used local stations (like Glencairn, Rosedale, Runneymede, etc) smaller to save on cost.

 

[Second_in_pie]

There has to be a delicate balance though. Yes, smaller stations are cheaper, but there are certain stations along the line that need to be bigger. St. George is a perfect example of a station that, in light of the current passenger demands, was underbuilt. Determine which stations along the route will be stations that handle a large amount of people (transfer stations, stations that connect to major bus/BRT/LRT routes, etc), and build them a bit bigger. But keep the less-used local stations (like Glencairn, Rosedale, Runneymede, etc) smaller to save on cost.

There should be two basic station designs; medium capacity stations like on the B-D line, and low capacity stations, which would be a simple entrance like the downtown stations, either straight into the ground or through another building. From there, just have ticket booths at the end of the platforms so you walk straight onto the platform, which would save a phenomenal amount of money. This would probably be preferable for a lot of the Eglinton stations, where there might not be a huge ridership, and there aren't any bus routes terminating.

I'm totally ok with big stations where they're needed; St. George, B-Y, Union, etc. etc. And some stations, like a majority of the DRL stations, could have colourful architecture that maybe suits the neighborhood (the DRL would be really cool with this.) But there's only two stations on the Spadina line that I'd see needing any of that, and that's the York U station with an interesting architecture, and VCC with a larger capacity (or at least built for an expansion in mind.)

 

[kettal]

HOV lanes that still share the roadway with other vehicles. HOV lanes that still require buses to leave said lanes to pick-up/drop-off passngers then try to reenter weaving through other traffic. Thanks for playing.

Um, what? The bus does not have to leave the HOV lane to pick up passengers on Don Mills...

Sounds quite obvious to me you have never used the Don Mills bus, or even seen it.