saveoursubways (SOS)

[Justin10000]

Rossi is very much anti-transit. He is catering to the fringe suburban voters who would never take transit.

 

[prosperegal]

I think the article in today's Toronto Star might be relevant to the Save Our Subway's thread. Adam Giambrone is set to announce his run in the upcoming mayoral race. I think a mayor such as Giambrone would see as much, if not more, investment in public transit then we saw under David Miller- who was also transit friendly. Giambrone is not only into transit and is a coucillor that takes many interests in what makes the riding that he is in tick. The reason that I know this is because I am friends with him on Facebook, anyone can be a friend of his (I think that this is a modern way in which he has been campaigning the last few years), and you will see how active he is on community events. Giambrone is young at 32, but has been active in his politacal party for many years. He also speaks more then one language which might help in the very multi-cultural community of Toronto.

The main reason that I would vote for the young Giambrone is that he is pro-transit, in fact I have seen him on a street car once when I was exploring my newly adopted city a few years ago. I also hope that Joe Mihevic, the TTC vice-chair becomes the chair of the TTC. I was at the TTC meeting, Giambrone was away on business, and Mihevic announced the TransitCity Plan. His enthusiasm was contagious, and I am sure he would also push for more subways as well as the streetcars and LRT that he promotes

I was hoping Giambrone was going to enter the race- I think if he was elected he might be able to convince the feds and province to invest in the transit infrastructure here in Toronto and that would spark similar investments all around the GTA as well. This could become a true transit oriented city under his leadership. Giambrone isn't perfect, no one is, but I think that transit investment would increase significantly if he were elected. I hope that the Bloor/Danforth line gets extended at both termini like the YUS subway line is getting. I strongly feel that the subway should get closer to Peel region, even more so then York Region.

You have GOT TO BE F-ing KIDDING ME about this! Yes, Adam Giambrone is YOUNG, but he thinks like an old man when it comes to transit technology. How do you expect a city to be even CLOSE to being sophisticated and polished when our fare collection is 20 years behind? In York Region, you can purchase fare from transit shelters. Can you do that in the 416? Shelters in York Region tell you when the next bus is coming. Again, it doesn't exist in the 416. I'm sorry, but Giambrone, despite being 32 years old, doesn't want the city to be well-polished and sophisticated if he continues his current philosophy. Very strange, since one would think that someone young would be (at least when it comes to technology. They might not be polished in other things....but that's for another topic).

 

[GraphicMatt]

You have GOT TO BE F-ing KIDDING ME about this! Yes, Adam Giambrone is YOUNG, but he thinks like an old man when it comes to transit technology. How do you expect a city to be even CLOSE to being sophisticated and polished when our fare collection is 20 years behind? In York Region, you can purchase fare from transit shelters. Can you do that in the 416? Shelters in York Region tell you when the next bus is coming. Again, it doesn't exist in the 416. I'm sorry, but Giambrone, despite being 32 years old, doesn't want the city to be well-polished and sophisticated if he continues his current philosophy. Very strange, since one would think that someone young would be (at least when it comes to technology. They might not be polished in other things....but that's for another topic).

Under Giambrone's watch, signs indicating when the next subway train is arriving have been added to many subway stations and real-time status of the streetcars on Spadina is displayed on that line.

Also under Giambrone's watch, the TTC finally got on board with the Presto farecard scheme, something management seems to have opposed.

You can criticize Giambrone for being perhaps a poor manager (I'd see your point there in a lot of ways) but he's certainly not anti-technology by any means.

 

[DavidH]

Giambrone can't take full credit on Presto; TTC's hand has been forced by the province. It's either sign up for Presto or give up all funding for Eglinton, Finch, Sheppard, and SRT projects.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Giambrone can't take full credit on Presto; TTC's hand has been forced by the province. It's either sign up for Presto or give up all funding for Eglinton, Finch, Sheppard, and SRT projects.

Oh, he definitely doesn't deserve full credit. He seemed to want to skip Presto entirely and go to direct debit/credit/cell phone payment. That said, characterizing the dude as old-fashioned or anti-technology just strikes me as a bizarre reach. Overwhelmed, bumbling, too-much-a-cheerleader and idealistic... -- all these are probably more appropriate ways to describe Giambrone.

 

[Justin10000]

You have GOT TO BE F-ing KIDDING ME about this! Yes, Adam Giambrone is YOUNG, but he thinks like an old man when it comes to transit technology. How do you expect a city to be even CLOSE to being sophisticated and polished when our fare collection is 20 years behind? In York Region, you can purchase fare from transit shelters. Can you do that in the 416? Shelters in York Region tell you when the next bus is coming. Again, it doesn't exist in the 416. I'm sorry, but Giambrone, despite being 32 years old, doesn't want the city to be well-polished and sophisticated if he continues his current philosophy. Very strange, since one would think that someone young would be (at least when it comes to technology. They might not be polished in other things....but that's for another topic).

OK, let's make a few corrections here. Only VIVA stops, and terminals have change machine, and next vehicle signs. Considering YRT considers VIVA to be it's trunk lines, I can easily argue the TTC's trunk lines(the subway) have ticket machines, next vehicle signs, AND fully staffed stations.
The new streetcars will most likely have some kind of on-board fare purchasing.

 

[Fresh Start]

If Giambrone wins this election, you can kiss any chances of new 416-centric Toronto subway projects goodbye for at least another generation or two. Expect to pay even higher fares for ever-worsening service quality ahead if he gets in office.

Most of what you're saying is irrelevant, because you're never going to sell the voting public on more buses as something to get excited about. Transit infrastructure with rails increases property values and gets voters fired up for candidates. It's why 'rapid transit through every ward' is such a critical part of Transit City, even if you'll disagree on the 'rapid' part.

In addition, basically concluding that the only mode of transit the TTC is capable of running well is subways is incredibly defeatist. And kind of wrong, considering that the TTC hasn't even done a great job of running the subway lately. Regardless of what shape current expansion and construction projects take, line mismanagement, customer service, etc. are separate issues that need to be addressed NOW.

I find it highly amusing that THE BUS as you put it is probably what transported you and most transit-using Torontonians to the subway and/or to work/school this morning. The bus that can pentrate all the small communities, all the office and industrial parks; the densely populated side streets, cul-de-sacs where even the streetcar cannot go. Of course with the level of public ignorance to the meritious qualities of bus transit allowed to go on unreproached, we are to assume that it is bad, when in reality as you inferred it's the operation of the fleets that's really to blame for delays and instances of poor service performance. So what I'm saying is very relevant, Bus Rapid Transit is just as marketable as Light Rail Transit, if not more so, for the above reasonings I gave and so much more. Investments in mass transit project can are lower if less needs to be invested on rails, whereby your city can invest the difference on bike lanes, on wider sidewalks, on making the urban liveability of Toronto sustainable.

Overall gas consumption in cities with efficient BRT busway systems have actually seen a decline in overall gas consumption over time. And never failing to disappoint, when you have a light rail breakdown, the whole system can go down as what happened recently in San Francisco with a derailment in the West Portal tunnel. The K, L, M and T lines were shut down for an entire day. Imagine if that were the Eglinton LRT line, sharing ROW with Jane and Don Mills LRTs. That wouldn't happen in a BRT system. One bus breaking down doesn't crash the whole system. Buses are called upon when railed transit failures to perform. Light rail has some advantages yes but BRTs are more flexible, can be built in a matter of months and are less cost prohibitive. We only need look to our neighbours: York Region, Ottawa, Gatineau, Quebec City, Montreal, Laval, Winnepeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Richmond, Victoria, soon Peel Region. They all with similar or even worse climatic conditions are able to make Bus Rapid Transit work. They recognize the modally it is a necessary precursor to railed transit and transit-owned properties down a corridor can with relative ease be converted to rail-lines as DEMAND and FUNDS become available.

The public cannot be sold on the benefits of Bus Rapid Transit? Really? Sell on this:[video=youtube;SDi6VA20Xl8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDi6VA20Xl8[/video] or this [video=youtube;UZl1N6bTp_M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZl1N6bTp_M[/video] and this [video=youtube;3LEtf32Bu3Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LEtf32Bu3Y[/video].

Please take note of the conversation that begins around the 4:00 minute mark of the third film. If ever you want to live to see the day we can ride a full-length Downtown Relief subway, take the subway all the way to Scarborough Centre or to the airport, its high time public concensus comes to realize that implementing BRT throughout the periphery is the surest route to get us there.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Good morning. In less than an hour, buses from Toronto will join others from York Region, Ottawa, Gatineau, Quebec City, Montreal, Laval, Winnepeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Richmond, Victoria and around the world. And you will be launching the largest transit advocacy battle in the history of mankind.

Mankind -- that word should have new meaning for all of us today.

We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore.

We will be united in our common interests.

Perhaps it is fate that we all got here today by bus, and you will once again be fighting for our bus, not from overcrowding, bunching, or rude drivers -- but from annihilation.

We're fighting for our right to live, to exist.

And should we win the day, THE BUS will no longer be known as a third-world mode of transportation, but as a modern day chariot, with the world declaring in one voice:

"We will not drive quietly into the night!

We will not vanish without a fight!

We're going to live on!

We're going to survive!"

Today, we celebrate our BUS!

 

[Justin10000]

^lol

 

[Ansem]

I think people need to realise that BRT will be a short-term solution until funding is made available again to convert the right corridors to LRT.

LRT is superior to BRT and that’s a fact. An LRT brings growth, revitalization to an area
and attracts more ridership than BRT. If done right of course and at the right location, it’s better than BRT in everyway.

I must again specify that SOS is NOT anti-LRT. On the contrary, Transit City is a good idea. The problem with it are

-The priority they got over other more needed projects like DRL
-The corridors being chosen
-Speed minus Eglinton Central-West
-Cost/value
-Capacity
-No long term vision
etc…

I think Transit City should be built but later and if that's being anti-LRT then call the French and other major European cities anti-LRT because at least they did it right.

-They did not use LRT to replace future subway lines on major corridors
-They did not built LRT before making their Rapid Transit/Metro/Subway network more complete with a good coverage of the city.

They completed or kept expending their rapid transit networks and then used LRT to complement their subway…not using LRT to replace subway technology.


The reasons why I think Subways should be built first:

-There is close to 15 billions on the table for Toronto as of now. With record deficit on all government level, it is unwise to assume that we will get that kind of funding in the near future.

If Transit city overcrowds the subway lines, we will need a lot of billions to catch up and that’s money that might not be available in the future. Building subways will be even more expensive in the future and other cities in Canada will ask for their share of transit money as well, putting more pressure on our governments who will likely still be in deficits.

Do you expect Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton stand by and watch the Federal government massively invest in Toronto's subway and do nothing? Hell no…especially Montreal who wants to expend the Metro by 33%.

Can the Federal government invest in Toronto while ignoring the other cities? Of course not. Bad for voting.

Can the Federal government Accommodate everyone? No lack of funding.

Can the provincial government act differently from the Federal government? Very unlikely.


-We should use those billions now for subways while we can. When every lines are completed and operational, it will be easier to ask for a billion here and there for LRT lines instead of asking for 30-40 billions all at once.
(increase cost for building subways in the future and most likely having to upgrade LRT line to subways)

SOS is often view as extremist subway lovers… Can anyone argue that

-Sheppard
-Eglinton
-DRL
-Bloor-Danforth to STC

Will be the only new lines that Toronto will ever need for a very long time?


My view on Eglinton.

I think Eglinton could have work.
The upgrade speed and the central underground part is great.

I dislike the fact that they ignored the Richview corridor and did not try to have it completely separated from Traffic like the Canada line.

I would normally side with those wanting a compromise. I'm worried about 1 thing only…Capacity.
I support subway on Eglinton not because I'm a subway junkie but because I believe that only HRT will be able to handle the demand in the future.

I'm not disputing the TTC ridership projection of the line. Take it from someone who studied researches time and time over in college, its all about the criterias of your study.

The TTC studied Pearson to Kennedy.
With that route, their projection is mostly accurate and justifies LRT.
It would serve people wanting to go east-west of town and those wanting to go downtown would just stay on the bus until Bloor

What happens the day DRL is build and (Eglinton-Don Mills and Eglinton-Jane as example) becomes the new terminus of that line?

If we agree that most of the commuters will use the fastest route available to them…

-Would the crosstown intercept the majority of "downtowners" before reaching Bloor or Danforth?
A DRL Station on Eglinton Crosstown would be very attractive because

A)The DRL having less station would get you faster to Union/Front-Bay st./Front-University area than loosing time on the bus going to Bloor or Danforth.

B)This would make the person bypass all those stop on the bus routes to Bloor-Danforth+ bypassing the subway stops on Bloor-DanforthTransfer at either St. Georges or Bloor-Yonge

C) When reaching Union they can take the YUS line or just walk outside/PATH

The question is: Will the LRT Crosstown be able to absorb all those new commuters?
Since the TTC never studied it, they assumed yes or they don't know…
I personally don't think so...


-The BRT is use as an alternative to LRT because its construction and operational cost are much lower. The money saved here can go to help finance the subway extensions.

-With the eventuality that Eglinton and Sheppard will need subway technology in the future, the cost for removing the LRT tracks, remake the stations, building subway tracks, adding HRT technology and digging with increase cost in the future will be “insaneâ€â€¦

Building subways now is better. It’s less expensive to upgrade BRT to LRT than LRT to subway…

Just common sense really

-Our plan is already drastically cutting the travel time of most of the commuters by making their trips to rapid transit shorter.

By bringing Rapid transit closer to their area combined with bus routes being modified, their travel time will have drastically decreased.

The debate that we're having is a false one.

Its not LRT vs Subway

Its Which one makes more sense to be built first?

 

[Hipster Duck]

LRT is superior to BRT and that’s a fact.

It's a fact, eh? Did the stain on your wall that looks like the Virgin Mary suddenly come to life and tell this to you over breakfast?

Seriously, if your organization (SOS) wants to be taken seriously, you are going to have to stop making declarative sentences like this. As Benjamin Franklin said, the only certainties in life are death and taxes.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

One of the several reasons why I have not taken SOS seriously either. Where is the proof that LRTs are superior to BRTs?

 

[Ansem]

It's a fact, eh? Did the stain on your wall that looks like the Virgin Mary suddenly come to life and tell this to you over breakfast?

Seriously, if your organization (SOS) wants to be taken seriously, you are going to have to stop making declarative sentences like this. As Benjamin Franklin said, the only certainties in life are death and taxes.

And of course you didn't read the rest

I said:
If built at the right place and build correctly on the right corridor
Lrt brings more economic growth to an area
etc....

I don't need you to tell me that many of our bus routes that aren't even BRT do better than Spadina streetcar.

By done right,
it includes Separated ROW with fully fonctionnal signal priority
built on the right corridor and with the appropriate infrastructure...like in Europe

The TTC are far from "doing it right"
wrong corridors
not completely separated from traffic
allowing left turns (signal priority not being fully enforced)

Which is why I use EUROPE

Whatever man, at least read the text. I know it's not always the case, depands how its built and where like I wrote in my text

 

[leopetr]

I don't need you to tell me that many of our bus routes that aren't even BRT do better than Spadina streetcar.

The Spadina streetcar does much better than the Spadina bus it replaced. Ridership is up enormously. The entire area is revitalized and blooming. Visiting Chinatown, Kensington Market, or taking it from Bloor down to Queen to see a movie at Scotiabank is a pleasure. We live at Christie Station, and my wife always chooses the Spadina car over the University subway for doing the latter.

Keep in mind that CLRVs are 30 years old, while a typical bus is more like 5 years old. I look forward to riding the new streetcars with no steps, a lighter ride, and modern AC+heating.

 

[nfitz]

He's definetly one politician we will NOT be contacting.

Surely he's the first one you should contact. He's the only pro-transit candidate so far ... everyone else is more likely to simply cancel projects to save money, and widen roads.

Trying to convert him from his LRT mindset would be like trying to convince a US Evangelical to go Muslim.

What a odd comment! And I'm not sure it's even correct ... surely someone who is already of a religious bent is more like to convert, than someone who isn't. Particularly from religions that are already very similiar and related such as Christianity and Islam!

...because none of the major candidates are really anti-transit.

Did you miss Rossi's speech that set himself up as the pro-car with his war on transit? He's looking to save money by spending less on transit. Surely that's even further from the SOS position than someone who has paved the way for 18-km of subway in his last term!