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saveoursubways (SOS)

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kEiThZ said:
It's cheaper to operate a few kms of subway extensions to existing lines than it is to setup and operate a whole new mode of transit. That's what makes Transit City so expensive.
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That makes no sense; 6 of the 8 Transit City lines would not be extensions of existing subway routes.

I guess though if you are looking at only a few km of subway expansions instead of 100+ km of LRT, then it might well be cheaper to operate the subway! I hadn't realised that the SOS plan was so limited in scope!
 
nfitz said:
That makes no sense; 6 of the 8 Transit City lines would not be extensions of existing subway routes.

I guess though if you are looking at only a few km of subway expansions instead of 100+ km of LRT, then it might well be cheaper to operate the subway! I hadn't realised that the SOS plan was so limited in scope!
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The operating cost of the bus routes that the TC lines are replacing should also be factored in as well, most of which would be lowered by conversion to LRT lines, and most of which would still be around with only a few Km of subway extensions
 
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kEiThZ said:
It's cheaper to operate a few kms of subway extensions to existing lines than it is to setup and operate a whole new mode of transit. That's what makes Transit City so expensive. Also, Transit City is essentially an upgrade to bus routes where it's not needed in some cases. How much of the operating budget, for example, will be wasted because the zoo is going to get a tram every 5 minutes? Whereas if they were to deploy better bus routes and build bus only lanes you could target service to the portions of the corridor based on demand. Is LRT more efficient than a bus? Sure. But is LRT more efficient in areas which can't even fill up a bus every 10 mins? Probably not. That's the flaw of Transit City. One size fits all does not work.
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Add on to that the fact that TC will need entirely new rolling stock. Extensions to B-D will need no new rolling stock, aside from the replacement of existing trains (an extension to STC would mean likely an extra 2-4 trainsets on the tracks at any time). Same goes with Sheppard, although they may need a couple new trainsets on there, but they can easily be taken from another line in the interim.

Eglinton and the DRL would be the only lines that would need to purchase new rolling stock. It's the extensions to existing lines instead of starting a new one where the current one ends that gives a pretty substantial cost savings in terms of rolling stock, even if the capital for building that extension is higher. 1 technology for 1 corridor.
 
Add on to that the fact that TC will need entirely new rolling stock. Extensions to B-D will need no new rolling stock, aside from the replacement of existing trains (an extension to STC would mean likely an extra 2-4 trainsets on the tracks at any time). Same goes with Sheppard, although they may need a couple new trainsets on there, but they can easily be taken from another line in the interim.
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I don't think you should assume that - considering the length of both extensions, it is highly likely that they will need additional trainsets - just like SSE does. And how can trains be "taken" from another line in the interim during rush without a negative impact?

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
I don't think you should assume that - considering the length of both extensions, it is highly likely that they will need additional trainsets - just like SSE does. And how can trains be "taken" from another line in the interim during rush without a negative impact?

AoD
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Because of the trainsets already purchased for the YUS line. These new trains will bump a significant portion of the trainsets currently operating on YUS onto B-D, which will bump some of the older trainsets on B-D out of service (but not all of them, therefore you will have an increase in the number of available trainsets). These available trainsets can be used on the B-D extension, considering it is only a 4 stop extension. I'm not saying this purchase will negate the future need to purchase any new subway cars for the extensions, I'm just saying the impact of purchasing new vehicles for SELRT and SLRT will be more than purchasing a couple extra trainsets for subway extensions on Sheppard and B-D.
 
gweed123 said:
Add on to that the fact that TC will need entirely new rolling stock. Extensions to B-D will need no new rolling stock.
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I'm not sure how this argument helps you. That you'd need new rolling stock for the 100+ km of new TC lines ... but instead we should build extensions to the subway that are so short, that they don't even need to buy extra trains!

SOS fail!
 
nfitz said:
I'm not sure how this argument helps you. That you'd need new rolling stock for the 100+ km of new TC lines ... but instead we should build extensions to the subway that are so short, that they don't even need to buy extra trains!

SOS fail!
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Nice bait, I have to say!
 
GraphicMatt said:
If you guys back Rossi I swear to god I will go full-on nuclear and start advocating for LRT in place of the Gardiner.
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We're not out to back anybody. We've said from the start we're just out to raise awareness about TC, what its pitfalls are and what the alternatives are. We want people to understand the opportunity cost of Transit City and the alternatives they are giving up. How people vote is their business.

But if anybody in the race does want to steal our ideas, great!
 
nfitz said:
I don't see how the semantics of us transit geeks has any bearing!

The construction cost per kilometre of the grade-separated section of the Eglinton LRT far exceeds that of the surface section. That's the point ... not whether a few geeks consider an undeground electric railway running 5 minutes or less is a subway or not!

It's interesting that Rossi appears to be objecting not to the capital costs of Transit City; but to the increased operating cost of Transit City. Yet the operating cost of a new LRT line will be less than the operating cost of an existing subway line. So I guess that's one politician that won't be supporting the SOS!
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Wrong! The tunneled portion of Eglinton Crosstown LRT only amounts to $2.2. billion or $220 million per kilometre for 10 kilometres. And note that's 10 kilometres out of 120 total TC kilometres, so how on earth you figure that subways will consume the majority of TC's total expense? And since light rail costs 2-3 times more to operate and maintain than the local buses TC aims to replace, they will substantially equate greater expense. It only costs a couple million per kilometre to create dedicated bus lanes down suburban corridors that are in excess of 30 metres width and with ample room in most places to expand roadways widths. Couple million dollars to create the same time advantages of the LRT that takes less time to build and is less intrusive than LRT construction. Think about it. So $12 billion or what have you can be spent differently in order to acheive even higher standards of transit quality, joint subway and BRT network compared to meandering streetcar lines through mixed traffic feeding into already overcrowded trunk subway corridors that won't be expanded.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
Sent you an invite Captain. I have bought our domain (www.saveoursubways.ca) as well as a few others just to hedge our bets (.com, .net, .info). And I set up a blog to start (saveoursubways.blogspot.com) but the .ca isn't forwarding there just yet. Still working on that. We're also on twitter at www.twitter.com/saveoursubways

Web experience would be invaluable for both the blog and the twitter account

Also sent a few other members invites. So check your PMs.

EDIT: www.saveoursubways.ca is now working
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Could I join please?
 
The Spadina subway short turns at St. Clair West station during the rush hour because they do not have enough trains. As the new trains arrive, they will be able to extend the short turns to Glencairn (two stations). Then they will start the replacing the old trains.
 
Rossi supports the SELRT, which SOS is deadset AGAINST. Yet he wants to "review" Eglinton, which SOS is NOT against, per se. Why in the WORLD would SOS support someone diametrically opposed to everything SOS stands for?

GraphicMatt's logic = fail
 
Fresh Start said:
Wrong! The tunneled portion of Eglinton Crosstown LRT only amounts to $2.2. billion or $220 million per kilometre for 10 kilometres.
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Do you have a reference for that? Does that include equipment and yards?

As for BRT costing $2-million per kilometer ... well perhaps if you are building BRT though a hydro easement ...
 
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