Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
And what happens if the next Mayor says: leave TC alone?
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saveoursubways (SOS)
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And what happens if the next Mayor says: leave TC alone?
Ansem
Banned
Then Transit city will be build and there will be nothing that any of us will be able to do about it...
Until then, trying to put subway back into the debate will only be beneficial to the city. At least let`s put subway into the debate and let the candidate debate and question Transit City and see what they have to offer...
I`m seriously not anti-Transit City. I`m against the priorities they`ve established.
Light rail should be expended after you complete the subway system. All Transit City will do is overload the Yonge line even further...Yes this will push the DRL but in the mean time, count at least 5 years of transit nightmare for thos using that line.
Replacing subway by LRT/streetcars on major arteries that would be logical for subway is pure non-sense espacially if you are perfectly aware (and they are) that you will have to change them to subway down the road like Sheppard and Eglinton with the extra cost that comes with it.
You find it logical that in the future they will have to spend a lot of money to take off the LRT, make another study and EA and build a subway with maybe twice the cost when it could have been done right from the start...
Am I a subway fanatic, no. I think that DRL, Sheppard, bloor-Danforth to STC and Eglinton is really all this city will need for a least a century. With close to 15 billions already on the table, it should have been used to subways instead of LRT
With this recession, who knows when will be the next time the government will invest billions like this to correct the mistake that Transit city will cause. Isn`t it easier to use all those funds on subway first?
I think asking for a billion here and there for LRT in the future, will be easier to get approved even if you take the increase cost into consideration and fund other arteries like
Steeles
Wilson/York Mills/Ellesmere
Lawrence
Jane
Dufferin
Islington
Don Mills...
than asking 30 or 40 billions to build much needed subways later. That`s not how you build a city, a transit system and bring growth to your city. Europeans have LRT, yes but they did it right. Subway first then you complement it with LRT.
SOS just wants the subway to be part of the public debate. Miller/Giambrone are trying to bury it by falsely saying that LRT is rapid Transit (save Eglinton West-Central) and that it`s the solution to all of Toronto`s problem.
Anyone saying that SELRT should have priority over DRL (Miller/Giambrone doctrine) is sick in the head and should get help...fast
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This whole thing really makes me think that they know their vision is eventually going to be exposed for the logical and planning fallacies in it, so they pushed their pet project (the SELRT) to the front of the line, because they knew it was the weakest logic out of the whole bunch, and most likely to be overturned and replaced with an 'evil subway' if they didn't get shovels in the ground very quickly.
The fact that they are starting construction in the east though does give us some breathing room when it comes to cancelling at least part of the project. If they can start digging a tunnel and then end up having to fill it back in, they can remake a median...
The fact that they are starting construction in the east though does give us some breathing room when it comes to cancelling at least part of the project. If they can start digging a tunnel and then end up having to fill it back in, they can remake a median...
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Anyone know how to get in contact with Patricia Sinclair from Save our Sheppard? I am interested in hearing her arguments for a subway
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
This is why your group kind of sucks, by the way. Unless you can find a quote from a TC supporter talking about how much they hate subway and how evil it is, all you're doing is making yourselves look like a bunch of whiny babies who want to ride fast trains.
First admit that the planners behind Transit City are smart and rational people. Experts, even. Then admit that you disagree with their rationale. Then present your case.
Sheppard is first because it's incomplete. Politically, they needed that checkmark before they could move on to other projects.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
I keep hearing that so many people oppose the SELRT, yet no one from S.O.S. can give the names of some of those people who do so. S.O.S. still has not contacted a slew of people such as Scarborough Councillors who want a Sheppard subway extension.
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First of all, the planners just do what the politicians tell them to do. I've heard this story repeated in my planning classes so many times it's not even funny. If the political group has made up their mind, all they need the planners for is to work out the details, and to create a rationale for supporting it (and yes, you can create a rationale to support nearly anything). A lot of those same planners worked on the RTES study in 2001.
And I also have spoken to many other 'experts' in the field of transportation planning (most of them with Master's or PhD's), and they agree with me. LRT the way it's being used in TC is a mistake.
And we have already repeated over and over again why we disagree with their rationale. The top 10 reasons are even posted on the front page of our website!
I don't know how many times I have to keep saying this, we aren't going to be contacting anyone of influence until we have a report that we can show them. It just doesn't make sense. "We're working on it, but here's what we have in mind" just won't fly. We're meeting in a week or so to finish off the report, it's in final draft right now.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Your rationale is (mostly) fine. The problem I have is your continued bandying of some nebulous 'other' group who despise subways for no reason and are pushing a plan they know won't work on Toronto for... evil, I guess.
It's immature. TC was not cooked up by Miller and Giambrone (and Munro?) alone in a room somewhere, cackling away at how much they like transit that doesn't go very fast. It's the sum total of a lot of work by some very smart people. You disagree, and that's great (and important), but be adults about it.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Fresh Start
Banned
You highlighted the wrong parts of the article before, so I just thought I'd correct that for you. Fixed!
Keeping the Sheppard subway as a 4-stop stub, will lose money. Not connecting it properly directly to major transit hubs in the east, will never meet ridership projections. Thinking Sheppard/Midland to Sheppard/Meadowvale rapid connectivity is as important or on the same scale as NYCC to SCC rapid connectivity defies logic. If the TTC is out to see its own lines fail, then it is doing a fantabulous job. I too would like to meet Patricia Sinclair, shake her hand and thank her for calling out the TTC on their hypocrisy. Whether she succeeded or not, at least Giambrone and the general public knows who the hell she is. Methinks it didn't take her over three months just to hold an offline group meeting or postpone speaking with the press until an official report was drafted. These people mean business and its high time that SOS starts acting accordingly, fight or flight!
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
My fear is that she's just fronting the standard NIMBY group all projects like this encounter, believing that the construction will destroy businesses and the ROW will make it harder for "real customers" (drivers) to get around.
Justin10000
Banned
"The group circulates the words of K. Alan Fenton, who alleges the city's LRT plan is an expensive mistake, rooted in "the anti-automobile ideology of the activist left," because light-rail may at some points leave less room for cars."
Well that group just lost any sort of credibility with statements like this.
Well that group just lost any sort of credibility with statements like this.
Not going to lie, that quote makes me a bit nervous about that group too. It sounds like they aren't really interested in a better transit plan, they're just worried about their cars. It's a quote that would fit in very well with the Mike Harris PC ideology of the mid-90s.
And I think what separates us is we're not just a NIMBY group (I don't think we're one at all), we're a group that is trying to propose a viable alternative plan, not just saying "we don't want this plan".
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Contact the author of one of those articles that mentions Ms. Sinclair mention your (our) group and say that you'd like to get into contact with her. I'm sure they'd have her contact information, and I'm sure she'd love to hear from more people who opposed the SRLRT.
I find it odd that Giambrone (the head of the TTC) would make a comment like this. As if to say "don't even bother with trying to bring discussions about alternatives, we've made up our minds". A true transit system leader should be willing to listen to any and all alternatives up to the point that a project has been significantly completed.
I find it odd that Giambrone (the head of the TTC) would make a comment like this. As if to say "don't even bother with trying to bring discussions about alternatives, we've made up our minds". A true transit system leader should be willing to listen to any and all alternatives up to the point that a project has been significantly completed.
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