nfitz
Superstar
And that's exactly the attitude that will have you dismissed as whacko cranks by anyone with any official role. Of course you need proof; only a fool would suggest otherwise!
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saveoursubways (SOS)
- Thread starter kEiThZ
- Start date
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Ansem
Banned
If you read the RTES report, it shows that subway is required on Sheppard East...read it
all the numbers and stats are there
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If we take a look at the August 2001 Rapid Transit Expansion Study ordered by the TTC, the numbers are very different:
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archive...s/rtes2002.pdf
Page.35
Existing Sections (2000)
Royal York to Kipling (2000)
2.7Km
3 Stations
Ridership
8.1000(pph)
59,031 daily boarding
Boarding per KM
21,863
Development within 500m
Population
8,339
Employment
8,639
Density
72
Development within 2 km
Population
50,548
Employment
32,613
Density
40
Victoria Park to Kennedy (2000)
5Km
3 Stations
Ridership
8,5000(pph)
56,741 daily boarding
Boarding per KM
11,348
Development within 500m
Population
18,066
Employment
3,386
Density
91
Development within 2 km
Population
133,135
Employment
32,331
Density
57
Finch Station to York Mills (2000)
-4.4Km
-4 Stations
Ridership
10,300(pph)
97,534 daily boarding
Boarding per KM
22,167
Development within 500m
Population
15,585
Employment
25,516
Density
131
Development within 2 km
Population
85,845
Employment
42,224
Density
47
Proposed Extensions (2021) (growth and ridership)
Don-Mills/Sheppard to Scarborough CC (2021)
-8.0Km
-6 stations
Ridership
*****8,400(pph)*****
102,840 daily boarding
Boarding per KM
12,855
Development within 500m
Population
39,498
Employment
37,615
Density
187
Development within 2 km
Population
275,090
Employment
114,615
Density
117
5000 vs. 8400 (pph) for Sheppard Avenue East is a huge difference. The TTC have never explained why there was such a difference between both projections.
These are the conclusions of the RTES study
P.35-49
Boarding Per Kilometers
The Sheppard Subway extension to Victoria Park and the Yonge Subway extension to Clark Avenue are superior to all options (see Exhibit ES-23) and even exceed the performance of the existing Yonge Subway line (York Mills - Finch). The remaining Sheppard and Yonge options as well as both Spadina options perform moderately well while the Scarborough RT, Eglinton and Bloor-Danforth options rank lowest in terms of boarding per kilometer.
So why is the TTC so obsessed in building a tunnel under the 404 highway with subway specs and not use subway to Consumers or Victoria Park?
Population and Employment Density
As outlined in Exhibit ES-24, two Sheppard Subway options (to Victoria Park and to the Scarborough City Center) dominate all other options and both of these options exceed both the density threshold and the existing performance of the Yonge line (York Mills. Finch). Density within two kilometers is highest on the Scarborough RT extension followed by the Sheppard Subway (to CN/CP and to Scarborough City Center) while the Yonge and Bloor-Danforth options are significantly below all other options (see Exhibit ES-25).
So why is the TTC are trying to insinuate that the density is too low even in their “new†projection for that corridor? Unlike the RTES study, the TTC gave no explanation on how the numbers could be so different today…
Overall Cost Effectiveness
The Sheppard Subway extension from Don Mills to Victoria Park and all of the Spadina and Yonge Subway options have the lowest ratio of capital costs to new riders by a wide margin (see Exhibit ES-26). The Scarborough RT and the extension of the Sheppard Subway to Kennedy/CN/CP or the Scarborough City Centre are moderately successful when comparing capital costs and the ability to generate new riders. The Bloor-Danforth options are the least cost effective from a capital cost effectiveness perspective followed by the Eglinton Subway. The ratio of operating costs to new riders is an indicator of the potential for a new line to recover its costs from the farebox (see Exhibit ES-27). The Sheppard Subway extension to Victoria Park Avenue is the highest ranked extension option based on this criteria followed closely by the Spadina Subway extensions options and the Yonge Subway extension to Clark Avenue. The remaining Sheppard Subway options, SRT, Eglinton Subway and Yonge Subway extension to Highway 7 perform moderately well while the Bloor-Danforth extension options are the lowest ranked options based on operating cost effectiveness.
The Sheppard Subway ridership is very high even in the current context of having only 5 stations of 5Km and not going to downtown, Downsview or Scarborough Centre. The Sheppard line out perform many busy subway line across the world who are 4 times longer, have 4 times more station and are link to a major downtown.
Network Connectivity
From a network connectivity and integration perspective, Sheppard Subway, Spadina Subway and Yonge Subway options are more highly rated (see Exhibit ES-28). The Sheppard Subway options have the ability to link the North City Centre, the Richmond Hill GO line, Highway 404, the Consumers Road Business Park, the Stouffville GO line, a future cross-town GO line, the Scarborough City Centre and the SRT into an integrated network. Similarly, an extension of the Spadina Subway line to York University has the ability to link York University, the Bradford GO line, the Vaughan Corporate Centre, the future Highway 407 Transitway and improved Highway 7 transit service into an integrated network. A Yonge Subway extension has the potential to link the North York City Centre, the future Highway 407 Transitway, the Richmond Hill GO line and regional bus service into an integrated transit network.
The TTC would rather have all those transit nodes linked by a LRT that will stop at red lights and operate at and average speed of 22Km/h than connecting them with a subway. Why is the TTC leaving out Scarborough Centre? The Malvern LRT and the Sheppard LRT will not be linked to Scarborough Center at all. This will create an extra transfer to have access to such an important part of our city.
Seriously... we're not idiots...
TTC changed that study to justify LRT instead of subways...
unless they've been knocking down condos and people left the area...
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GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Hey, what's the deal with the SRT replacement? Any real details on that yet? Will the section of RT being replaced with LRT still be completely grade separated?
nfitz
Superstar
I read it in 2001; I read it a few years later, and I read it recently, when I referenced it in another thread. I also pointed out earlier int this thread that of course the numbers are different. They are for subway, while newer estimates are for using LRT, which would of course be lower. Not one person challenge me when I pointed this out ... and yet you now choose to ignore it.
I also pointed out that none of the of the numbers justified the use of subway, and are significantly lower than 10,000 pph.
If the best you can do it is point to a decade-old report that also couldn't demonstrate that there would be enough passengers to justify a subway, then I fail to see how you can have any hope of success.
Ansem
Banned
You're entitled to your opinion...
Transit companies have a tendency to underestimate the ridership of new subway lines and get a surprise when it opens...
That's how much subway attracts people...
The 8400 number is for the Sheppard ave area and doesn't take into consideration how much suburban would drive to a Sheppard station to take the subway or how the Go/Viva/YRT would reroute their riders...
I always thought accommodating 8400 people was better than 3000...
Ridership grows overtime...
The Sheppard line is identical to the Montreal blue line...
Who in their right mind today would trade the blue line for a LRT stopping at red lights at 22km/h on Jean-Talon???
Could the Sheppard line be manage better? absolutely...
Last train leaving Sheppard-Yonge is at 2am...that's a waste of funds especially when you have night buses on Sheppard East...
They should and could close it earlier to save in operation cost. They use to close the blue line at 11h15pm 10 years ago but a north Rapid crosstown was needed.
If Eglinton LRT can reach 28-31 km/h on the west surface route, why can't Sheppard?
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nfitz
Superstar
So basically, your pulling it our of your ass!
Ansem
Banned
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
I am worried that a push to extend the Sheppard Subway to STC at this time is going to fail. I would prefer to see SOS fight for mini extensions of the line over the years and I think you might be more successful that way. So push for a subway to VP for now, then maybe Kennedy later on, and then STC after that
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Ansem
Banned
We have no problem of it being built in 2 phases...
Phase I to Agincourt
Phase II to STC
As long as the LRT doesn't go west of Agincourt...
nfitz
Superstar
What's wrong with that answer ... it seems an accurate reflection of the situation. You have nothing technical to back up the answer. As far I understand "pulling it out of your ass" is the correct engineering term to describe such a situation.
Inkarnate
Active Member
How about this? Instead of arguing with Nfitz, let's ask him outright exactly what he wants the TTC to do with Transit City, and then all of us SOS members can properly try and compromise with him. Because this is really getting us nowhere.
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Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
In your plans, have you made any recommendations on how to intensify Sheppard Avenue East to make a subway extension more attractive?
nfitz
Superstar
What you discuss with Steve Munro is beside the point. If you have no justification for using subway on Sheppard East other than decade-old TTC report that indicates that the extension will only have 8,000 PPHPD then you have no chance for any progress with anyone you will need to have progress with.
Though discussing with Steve may be a good sounding board ... I'd think he'd be a lot easier to convince of the merits of the proposal (if there are any) than anyone else you'd have to convince!
Inkarnate
Active Member
I've stayed out of the discussion because I really am no good with statistics, they just go straight through my head, lol.
I will be right out in the open with you: I joined SOS because mainly I just like subways; what exactly it is about them I like, I don't really know, lol, but I like 'em. However I agree that there many obstacles that are in the way before subways can be built, and they need to be addressed. I'm afraid I don't know many of them as I don't live in or near the areas that have been looked at for subway lines/extensions of lines, and the stats are just numbers to me. That's why I've been keeping quiet.
I will be right out in the open with you: I joined SOS because mainly I just like subways; what exactly it is about them I like, I don't really know, lol, but I like 'em. However I agree that there many obstacles that are in the way before subways can be built, and they need to be addressed. I'm afraid I don't know many of them as I don't live in or near the areas that have been looked at for subway lines/extensions of lines, and the stats are just numbers to me. That's why I've been keeping quiet.
Ansem
Banned
1-A mix of residential, commercial and employment uses will reduce live-work-play distances and restricting parkings on Sheppard Ave. discourage automobile trips.
2-The 3 job centres are to be connected with an efficient rapid transit system not 22km/h Streetcar
(North York Centre-Consumers-Scarborough Centre)
3-How it works:
A) Subway stations where zonage allows it will massively draw new residents...(not pulling it out of my ass Nfitz..its a known fact)
B) With station being built on Sheppard Avenue East, important revitalization and densification of the corridor will follow since residents will try as much as possible to live near Sheppard and pay higher taxes.
C) An increase of residents brings an increase of commercial buildings
D) An increase of commerce brings an increase of businesses
E)An increase of businesses increase job availability in the corridor.
F) More jobs available being in the corridor brings more residents. (to live closer to work,commerce and centres)
G) The results of the above:
A+B+C+D+E+F (LOOP)= Increase of densification
Increase of densification=More Taxpayers
Revitalization=Higher taxes
More taxpayers+Higher taxes=More revenue for the city of Toronto
Subway expensive?
Yes,but in the long term, Toronto wins on so many level...
We're to focus on recovering our investment ASAP while the europeen see public transit for what it is...AN INVESTMENT...
Will LRT do the same thing?
yes but nowhere near to what a subway would bring...
because LRT:
1-Slow Transit stopping at red lights
2-Transfert at Don Mills
3-No connection to Scarborough Centre
Fighting for subways is not only about having a train at your door of to travel more comfortably.
Its seeing the bigger picture with all the above and what North York and Scarborough Centre could become along with the Sheppard corridor if Rapid transit was there. There's too much potential there to ignore this
The only line so far who is rapid Transit is Eglinton
-22-25km/h Kennedy to Don Mills
-30 km/h + Tunnel
-30-31 km/h West surface route to airport
Now that's much better...
All this opposition to SELRT is really the TTC's fault.
All they add to do was
1-Faster speed
2-Connection to Scarborough Centre
***I had some classes on urbanism...
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