saveoursubways (SOS)

[gweed123]

If the times and alignments are still up for debate, I think that Etobicoke would be pretty well served with the Eglinton subway, B-D extension to Sherway, and Jane and Finch LRTs. I'm just worried about duplicating service along the Georgetown corridor that probably won't require two lines. A single, more regional service would probably be all that's needed.

But a DRL to Dundas West would probably be needed in the 15-year timeline. It'd give a good service to CityPlace, and would provide general relief to the King Streetcar. DRL North on Don Mills should be in the 25 year plan just because it's an obvious and very easy extension.

Actually, I used a Wellington alignment for the DRL, and terminated at Spadina (City Place) instead of Union as has been initially proposed. My reasoning for this is 2-fold:
1) It services City Place, as well as the Rogers Centre.
2) It saves from digging up downtown streets twice (after City Place it can use the rail corridor, and thus not require ripping up streets).

And as for the naming thing, I tried to use as much of 'secondary names' as I could (like on the University line, St. Patrick instead of Dundas West, etc).

And I wasn't too sure about the stops for Sheppard West, I didn't know a study existed for it.

 

[Dan416]

Actually, I used a Wellington alignment for the DRL, and terminated at Spadina (City Place) instead of Union as has been initially proposed. My reasoning for this is 2-fold:
1) It services City Place, as well as the Rogers Centre.
2) It saves from digging up downtown streets twice (after City Place it can use the rail corridor, and thus not require ripping up streets).

And as for the naming thing, I tried to use as much of 'secondary names' as I could (like on the University line, St. Patrick instead of Dundas West, etc).

And I wasn't too sure about the stops for Sheppard West, I didn't know a study existed for it.

The Metrolinx BCA for the "Finch West-Sheppard East Corridor" examined a westward expansion of the subway to Downsview. It was evaluated to be similar in price and similar in benefits to the conversion of the entire Sheppard line to LRT. I imagine a similar number of stops to the east would cost approximately the same. It estimated conversion of the Sheppard Subway to LRT to cost $600 million, IIRC. For that price, it really does make more sense just to expand the subway. And I hope that figure can finally put to rest the idea of converting the subway to LRT, ever.

The station names they used for the western stations were, IIRC, Senlac, Bathurst and Goddard (they did not designate it as Bathurst North or anything like that--I don't think they posited an alternative name that wouldn't duplicate the current Bathurst station).

 

[Second_in_pie]

Actually, I used a Wellington alignment for the DRL, and terminated at Spadina (City Place) instead of Union as has been initially proposed. My reasoning for this is 2-fold:
1) It services City Place, as well as the Rogers Centre.
2) It saves from digging up downtown streets twice (after City Place it can use the rail corridor, and thus not require ripping up streets).

And I wasn't too sure about the stops for Sheppard West, I didn't know a study existed for it.

I think that a Wellington alignment through downtown would be great, actually. But if money could be saved by using the rail corridor, that'd make more sense for the sections outside downtown (unless the West extension wants to go over to Roncesvales.)

I don't think there is actually any real study past Victoria Park, but that doesn't mean they didn't look into where the stops could go. They basically planned out the whole line, but it was just cut short by a lack of funding.

 

[gweed123]

The Metrolinx BCA for the "Finch West-Sheppard East Corridor" examined a westward expansion of the subway to Downsview. It was evaluated to be similar in price and similar in benefits to the conversion of the entire Sheppard line to LRT. I imagine a similar number of stops to the east would cost approximately the same. It estimated conversion of the Sheppard Subway to LRT to cost $600 million, IIRC. For that price, it really does make more sense just to expand the subway. And I hope that figure can finally put to rest the idea of converting the subway to LRT, ever.

The station names they used for the western stations were, IIRC, Senlac, Bathurst and Goddard (they did not designate it as Bathurst North or anything like that--I don't think they posited an alternative name that wouldn't duplicate the current Bathurst station).

Cool, I'll make the changes then. My only worry with having multiple station names is that the current stations with directions in their names will either stay the same and be out of sync with the trend, or will need to be changed as well. I think the 'Sheppard-Yonge' thing should be reserved for intersection stations only.

What does everyone think?

 

[Second_in_pie]

What does everyone think?

I agree. So it'd turn into "Eglinton-Allen," "Yonge-Eglinton," "Don Mills-Eglinton," "Kennedy." I think that if you're on Sheppard, it should be obvious you're not going to Bathurst station on the B-D; you should know what line you're on. However, something like the YUS should be different in case you take the wrong direction (?) or fall asleep (?) It just feels right I guess.

 

[gweed123]

I agree. So it'd turn into "Eglinton-Allen," "Yonge-Eglinton," "Don Mills-Eglinton," "Kennedy." I think that if you're on Sheppard, it should be obvious you're not going to Bathurst station on the B-D; you should know what line you're on. However, something like the YUS should be different in case you take the wrong direction (?) or fall asleep (?) It just feels right I guess.

The intersection stations should be: Sheppard-Yonge (Yonge in each case being the last name, just because it sounds better, haha), Eglinton-Yonge, Bloor-Yonge, King-Yonge, Union, St. Andrew, St. George, Spadina, Eglinton-Allen, Downsview, Black Creek, Science Centre, Kennedy, Brimley, Pape-Danforth, and Dundas West (Dundas West intersects both Bloor and the rail corridor, so naming it Bloor-Dundas West is kinda redundant).

So should we change all E-W routes to remove the North and South on them? Ie Sheppard, Eglinton, and Bloor-Danforth shouldn't have to worry about name overlapping, but YUS and DRL should (because they loop around and don't go in a straight line).

 

[Dan416]

The intersection stations should be: Sheppard-Yonge (Yonge in each case being the last name, just because it sounds better, haha), Eglinton-Yonge, Bloor-Yonge, King-Yonge, Union, St. Andrew, St. George, Spadina, Eglinton-Allen, Downsview, Black Creek, Science Centre, Kennedy, Brimley, Pape-Danforth, and Dundas West (Dundas West intersects both Bloor and the rail corridor, so naming it Bloor-Dundas West is kinda redundant).

So should we change all E-W routes to remove the North and South on them? Ie Sheppard, Eglinton, and Bloor-Danforth shouldn't have to worry about name overlapping, but YUS and DRL should (because they loop around and don't go in a straight line).

Well the reason we have "Dundas West" and "Lawrence West" and "Sheppard West" are because those are actual street names. Dundas Street West, Lawrence Avenue West, Sheppard Avenue West.

There is no Victoria Park Avenue North.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The intersection stations should be: Sheppard-Yonge (Yonge in each case being the last name, just because it sounds better, haha), Eglinton-Yonge, Bloor-Yonge, King-Yonge, Union, St. Andrew, St. George, Spadina, Eglinton-Allen, Downsview, Black Creek, Science Centre, Kennedy, Brimley, Pape-Danforth, and Dundas West (Dundas West intersects both Bloor and the rail corridor, so naming it Bloor-Dundas West is kinda redundant).

So should we change all E-W routes to remove the North and South on them? Ie Sheppard, Eglinton, and Bloor-Danforth shouldn't have to worry about name overlapping, but YUS and DRL should (because they loop around and don't go in a straight line).

I don't want to get too much into station naming, but it's definitely Yonge-Eglinton. If the DRL is going to hook up with the YUS at St. Andrew, King and Union, why not just keep it at that?

Yeah I think that for separate lines, there's not really any problem with having the same station names. It's probably be even more confusing with North, South, East and West everywhere anyway.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Goddard doesn't make any sense for a station...Wilmington does. Why no Sheppard line stations at Allanford or Kennedy? That's the whole point in serving Agincourt. Why skip Cosburn on the DRL? There's like 10,000 people living within two blocks.

I do not understand why yoou have the Sheppard subway coming east of Agincourt GO Station

To service Scarborough Centre which has been designated as a future urban growth centre and mobility hub.

I think he means why would you run the line to Brimley or McCowan and then turn south to STC when you can run it through the GO interchange as originally planned.

 

[Fresh Start]

Goddard doesn't make any sense for a station...Wilmington does. Why no Sheppard line stations at Allanford or Kennedy? That's the whole point in serving Agincourt. Why skip Cosburn on the DRL? There's like 10,000 people living within two blocks.

I think he means why would you run the line to Brimley or McCowan and then turn south to STC when you can run it through the GO interchange as originally planned.

Yeah, I was thinking about these issues too. In Network 2011 the stops are designated Faywood, Bathurst North and Senlac. I think that a station for the 104 bus to connect directly with would make more sense than Goddard, even if I disagree with Sheppard West's entire relevancy.

The O'Connor Station is Cosburn. The corridors are roughly only 400 metres apart. Most people are willing to walk further than that to connect to a reliable transit source. Furthermore if the station is actually bounded by Woodville (north exit) and Gamble (south exit) it'd only be a 25m walk on the surface down to Cosburn.

Regarding the alignment to SCC, another station in-between the GO station and the Town Centre doesn't seem too unreasonable. Ideally this stop could be at Glen Watford (midway between Midland and Brimley) where there is a lot of commercial density on-site and transfer point for the 57 bus plus an opportunity to directly connect the subway with Midtown-Seaton GO corridor.

 

[Dan416]

Just because we have stations listed, it's by no means final and set in stone. Station stops and spacing are detailed further along in the planning process. Maybe we shouldn't even name the stops at all to avoid this kind of confusion? Just name the terminal and interchange stops...

 

[Fresh Start]

I don't want to get too much into station naming, but it's definitely Yonge-Eglinton. If the DRL is going to hook up with the YUS at St. Andrew, King and Union, why not just keep it at that?

Yeah I think that for separate lines, there's not really any problem with having the same station names. It's probably be even more confusing with North, South, East and West everywhere anyway.

I think that there should only be one station at Wellington and Bay dubbed the Central Business District and have fare-paid zoned tunnels radiate from this point to connect with the three YUS stations. The next stations over could be at Simcoe St and Church St to capture all the patrons of the CN Tower/Rogers Ctr and Sony Ctr/St Lawrence Mkt respectively. Just thought I'd put that idea out there.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The O'Connor Station is Cosburn. The corridors are only 400 metres apart. Most people are willing to walk further than that to connect to a reliable transfer source. Furthermore if the station is actually bounded by Woodville (north exit) and Gamble (south exit) it'd only be a 25m walk on the surface down to Cosburn.

Regarding the alignment to SCC, another station in-between the GO station and the Town Centre doesn't seem unreasonable. Ideally this stop could be at Glen Watford (midway between Midland and Brimley) where there is a lot of commercial density on-site, transfer point for the 57 bus and an opportunity to directly connect the subway with Midtown-Seaton GO corridor.

No, the O'Connor station is at O'Connor. If a stop was at Cosburn, as there must be, it'd be called Cosburn. If you're gonna push a plan based on a map and the map has a whole bunch of random station and alignment choices, that's all anyone is going to notice.

Sheppard needs to run through the CN/CP interchange, which means turning off Sheppard at Kennedy. Having 3 GO/subway interchanges within a kilometre of each other instead of having all 3 lines connect in one place makes zero sense. You can't put GO stations that close together. There's a few stores at Glen Watford...that's it. The Midland bus would either run to the CN/CP station or to one along Progress, which could be closer to Brimley to serve an area slated for massive developments. The original alignment to STC is also shorter. There's no reason to change it.

 

[kEiThZ]

I second Scarberian's opinion on the Sheppard East alignment. Can we facilitate that?

 

[gweed123]

I think that there should only be one station at Wellington and Bay dubbed the Central Business District and have fare-paid zoned tunnels radiate from this point to connect with the three YUS stations. The next stations over could be at Simcoe St and Church St to capture all the patrons of the CN Tower/Rogers Ctr and Sony Ctr/St Lawrence Mkt respectively. Just thought I'd put that idea out there.

That's the kind of idea that I was going for, although I still think having 3 platforms is a good idea. One that parallels Union (from almost halfway between York and Bay, to Bay along Wellington), one from Yonge to almost Church (with an exit onto Church), and one from University to Duncan. This extends the reach of the subway out beyond the CBD.

I'm also a big proponent of having the DRL extended to City Place (Spadina) in Phase 1, to avoid the hastles of re-digging in downtown. After Spadina it switches from being tunnelled to being either surface or cut-n-cover, might as well get it to that point. Also provides some nice connectivity to the Spadina streetcar, and avoids those passengers having to go all the way down to QQ and then back up to Union just to get to the CBD.