saveoursubways (SOS)

[Second_in_pie]

I posted this in the group forum but I'll post it here too. These are the breakdowns for distances of the proposed subway lines. I have broken some of the lines up into different sub-sections because a significant change in construction techniques could occur (ex: tunnelled to trenched). These distances are approximate, but follow the proposed routes of the lines. Station costs will also need to be added in later.

I'm assuming you broke the lines up based on different construction techniques?

I can see with Eglinton that it'll be tunneled from Jane to Laird, where it'll go above ground to Don Mills? I won't argue with that. Some wonky bridging/tunneling from Jane to Royal York, then Richview trench to Martin Grove. After that, raised guideway along 427/Dixon Road?

I also thought that Kipling-Sherway would be relatively easy to do with an easy raised guideway. A bit of the route back to Dundas could probably be done with the same.

I might add in a DRL North on Don Mills to the equation. Don Mills-Sheppard is about 6.1 kilometers, and Sheppard-Finch is a good 2.1 km, 2.8 if you want to put a stop right at the heart of Seneca College on the Finch Hydro Corridor. I'd imagine that the Eglinton-Sheppard portion could be done pretty much all raised guideway along the centre of the street, but above Sheppard, I'm not sure how well it would work. So I'd probably duck the subway underground before Sheppard, probably just after the 401. With that, the raised section would be about 5.4 km, and a tunnel to Finch would be 2.7 km (3.4 to the Hydro Corridor)

 

[hbl33]

Judging by divided distances as stated, what construction method is appropriate to which section, and how advantageous are they in construction cost-to-time ratio?

Will most of the constructions will be cut-and-cover like the ones at Sheppard/Yonge? or will it be tunneling through most of the lines?

As far as I know, tunneling seems to be cost-effective at best in midtown/downtown cores, while the old-fashioned c'n'c' seems more appropriate on outer boroughs. But would TTC and the residents approve it according to circumstances?

 

[gweed123]

Judging by divided distances as stated, what construction method is appropriate to which section, and how advantageous are they in construction cost-to-time ratio?

Will most of the constructions will be cut-and-cover like the ones at Sheppard/Yonge? or will it be tunneling through most of the lines?

As far as I know, tunneling seems to be cost-effective at best in midtown/downtown cores, while the old-fashioned c'n'c' seems more appropriate on outer boroughs. But would TTC and the residents approve it according to circumstances?

It all depends on what is overtop. On Eglinton, the central portion will likely be tunnelled, as to not disturb anything on the surface. The remainder of Sheppard will likely be the same. I'm not an expert on tunnelling methods, so I'll leave that to those on here who are more educated to determine what is best. I do know the Richview corridor is a great opportunity to trench though, which will significantly reduce costs for that section.

 

[gweed123]

I'm assuming you broke the lines up based on different construction techniques?

I can see with Eglinton that it'll be tunneled from Jane to Laird, where it'll go above ground to Don Mills? I won't argue with that. Some wonky bridging/tunneling from Jane to Royal York, then Richview trench to Martin Grove. After that, raised guideway along 427/Dixon Road?

I also thought that Kipling-Sherway would be relatively easy to do with an easy raised guideway. A bit of the route back to Dundas could probably be done with the same.

I might add in a DRL North on Don Mills to the equation. Don Mills-Sheppard is about 6.1 kilometers, and Sheppard-Finch is a good 2.1 km, 2.8 if you want to put a stop right at the heart of Seneca College on the Finch Hydro Corridor. I'd imagine that the Eglinton-Sheppard portion could be done pretty much all raised guideway along the centre of the street, but above Sheppard, I'm not sure how well it would work. So I'd probably duck the subway underground before Sheppard, probably just after the 401. With that, the raised section would be about 5.4 km, and a tunnel to Finch would be 2.7 km (3.4 to the Hydro Corridor)

Yes. From Don Mills to Laird, it goes over the Don River, and the south side of Eglinton is completely open. This would be the perfect opportunity to do either an Old Mill or Rosedale Ravine style bridge over the Don, eliminating the need to tunnel that section, and reducing the cost significantly.

As for the DRL north of Eglinton, I think that is a 25+ year project. Yes it would help relieve the Yonge line further north, but I think with the improved signaling in place and the like, Yonge north of Eglinton should move pretty well. It certainly is not a priority project.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Any ideas on when you will be presenting your plans?

 

[doady]

But it would mean a significantly shorter trip for those in South Etobicoke to reach to B-D subway. The trip to Kipling station from Lakeshore is easily 20+ minutes. The extension to Sherway isn't just for Mississauga...

But since Sherway is right on the border of Mississauga, any validation of such an such an extension should strongly consider the needs of Mississauga shouldn't it? And yet Mississauga would not benefit...

And considering that Sherway is right on border of Mississauga, does it really bring the subway that much closer to many people in Toronto? And is that the point of the SOS proposal anyways? Is the point of SOS to bring the subway closer to the average Toronto resident? It sounds a little too Transit City-ish to me...

To present a serious and strong alternative for Transit City, SOS should be careful to work within the time frame set by Transit City, and yet at the same time be more forward thinking and avoid the whole "more for less" attitude that resulted in Transit City. The focus should be on fixing the current problems which Transit City completely ignores with a "less is more" approach.

So I think the subways I mentioned are beyond the scope of SOS. Remember that the point of SOS is not to present an ultimate vision for transit in Toronto, but merely to provide an alternative to Transit City.

This is just my opinion of course. I'm probably wrong.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

What do you feel are your chances at cancelling the entire Sheppard East LRT line? Has 'gweed123' even run some of the ideas by his former urban planning professors at Ryerson?

 

[Dan416]

But since Sherway is right on the border of Mississauga, any validation of such an such an extension should strongly consider the needs of Mississauga shouldn't it? And yet Mississauga would not benefit...

And considering that Sherway is right on border of Mississauga, does it really bring the subway that much closer to many people in Toronto? And is that the point of the SOS proposal anyways? Is the point of SOS to bring the subway closer to the average Toronto resident? It sounds a little too Transit City-ish to me...

To present a serious and strong alternative for Transit City, SOS should be careful to work within the time frame set by Transit City, and yet at the same time be more forward thinking and avoid the whole "more for less" attitude that resulted in Transit City. The focus should be on fixing the current problems which Transit City completely ignores with a "less is more" approach.

So I think the subways I mentioned are beyond the scope of SOS. Remember that the point of SOS is not to present an ultimate vision for transit in Toronto, but merely to provide an alternative to Transit City.

This is just my opinion of course. I'm probably wrong.

doad you're part of the group, why don't you take part in our discussions within the group? all opinions are welcome.

i think everyone is in agreement about most of our priorities.

1. Sheppard East LRT should be upgraded to a continuation of the Sheppard Subway to STC (and possibly to Downsview)
2. Danforth to STC
3. DRL Phase I (Union to Pape)

There is a little more disagreement on the Eglinton issue and the other extensions.

Maybe we can just focus on the three I've just mentioned. The more focussed we can get, the less disagreement, and the sooner we can move forward.

 

[nfitz]

Seems like a great plan for the Scarborough and the east side of downtown.

What's in it for the rest of the city?

 

[andomano]

Seems like a great plan for the Scarborough and the east side of downtown.

What's in it for the rest of the city?

The rest of the city already got theirs. The rest of the city already has subways, streetcars and such. Haven't you ever noticed how the Sheppard subway stops before, and how B/D barely pierces into the Scarborough border?

 

[Fresh Start]

But since Sherway is right on the border of Mississauga, any validation of such an such an extension should strongly consider the needs of Mississauga shouldn't it? And yet Mississauga would not benefit...

And considering that Sherway is right on border of Mississauga, does it really bring the subway that much closer to many people in Toronto? And is that the point of the SOS proposal anyways? Is the point of SOS to bring the subway closer to the average Toronto resident? It sounds a little too Transit City-ish to me...

To present a serious and strong alternative for Transit City, SOS should be careful to work within the time frame set by Transit City, and yet at the same time be more forward thinking and avoid the whole "more for less" attitude that resulted in Transit City. The focus should be on fixing the current problems which Transit City completely ignores with a "less is more" approach.

So I think the subways I mentioned are beyond the scope of SOS. Remember that the point of SOS is not to present an ultimate vision for transit in Toronto, but merely to provide an alternative to Transit City.

This is just my opinion of course. I'm probably wrong.

I respectfully disagree. Mississaugans would benefit from a Sherway Gdns Stn right beside Sauga's Trillium Hospital. The 4 bus' ridership and folk from Applewood and the Lakeshore strip may not account for much, but assuredly they'd benefit from a subway stop around the Queensway more so than one up at Dundas or Bloor. Likewise the residents of Long Branch and Alderwood would only be 10-15 minutes away via the 123. The Sherway Gdns area also has lots of trip-generators with which to make the stop well-trafficked and viable. The mall, the big-box block, the condos, the business parks. It's easily a more appealing regional centre than the East Mall area would be, which would be served by the subway en route irregardless.

On the "more is less", "less is more" debate I think it's mighty ridiculous that cities with under 300,000 residents are slated for subway extensions but Mississauga-Brampton which already has more residents than the Province of Saskatchewan can't get a measly subway to its border. That's why having a subway or fully-grade separated LRT (natch) go to the airport as well one to Dundas-Dixie, would really go along way towards distributing loads and giving riders more commuting options.

 

[Fresh Start]

Seems like a great plan for the Scarborough and the east side of downtown.

What's in it for the rest of the city?

Eventually Highway 27-F.H.C. BRT (literally a subway, just on the surface with tire wheels) and western extension of the DRL from Spadina to the Airport via Mount Dennis.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

What rest of the city? Rexdale? There's still rapid transit gaps with considerable concentrations of people even in Scarborough - not that the city needs to be blanketed with transit like a SimCity is blanketed with water pipes, though, but if one was to create a fantasy map blanketing the city, it'd help to have some sense of where people actually live and travel to. If people are complaining about an eastern bias, they're doing so while forgetting that the Spadina line was already built west of Yonge and is being extended.

If Bloor is ever extended, going to Sherway is an absolute requirement. Mississauga buses can dump people off at an East Mall station...there's no eleventh commandment that says Thou shalt bring 905ers to the terminus station.

 

[gweed123]

What do you feel are your chances at cancelling the entire Sheppard East LRT line? Has 'gweed123' even run some of the ideas by his former urban planning professors at Ryerson?

I haven't talked to any of them specifically about the SELRT, but many of them have made their opinions about the "Sheppard Stubway" quite clear. From a transit planning perspective, imposing a transfer midway along a line does not make sense.

However I did write an article about the DRL for the Ontario Planning Journal (an entry which was sponsored by my Transportation Planning prof), and several of my profs approached me about the article, and completely agreed with me on it.

 

[gweed123]

I respectfully disagree. Mississaugans would benefit from a Sherway Gdns Stn right beside Sauga's Trillium Hospital. The 4 bus' ridership and folk from Applewood and the Lakeshore strip may not account for much, but assuredly they'd benefit from a subway stop around the Queensway more so than one up at Dundas or Bloor. Likewise the residents of Long Branch and Alderwood would only be 10-15 minutes away via the 123. The Sherway Gdns area also has lots of trip-generators with which to make the stop well-trafficked and viable. The mall, the big-box block, the condos, the business parks. It's easily a more appealing regional centre than the East Mall area would be, which would be served by the subway en route irregardless.

On the "more is less", "less is more" debate I think it's mighty ridiculous that cities with under 300,000 residents are slated for subway extensions but Mississauga-Brampton which already has more residents than the Province of Saskatchewan can't get a measly subway to its border. That's why having a subway or fully-grade separated LRT (natch) go to the airport as well one to Dundas-Dixie, would really go along way towards distributing loads and giving riders more commuting options.

Did someone say Park-n-Ride for the QEW/Gardiner??? The Park-n-Ride at Don Mills station accounts for a good percentage of the Sheppard line's usage, no reason to think similar numbers wouldn't occur at Sherway.