saveoursubways (SOS)

[Second_in_pie]

Or contain costs further and just cut...

I agree with this here. Maybe if the Eglinton west extension had more time to plan than the current section, the TTC could figure out some stuff with developers, like maybe developing over the cut section, or even integrating their building into a station.

I think that once a subway's on the richview corridor, people'll be lining up to build apartments and condos there. Once the development spur's over, we can look at maybe filling over the gaps for sports fields or something. But right now, a trenched subway wouldn't be a huge annoyance to anyone, except maybe drivers on Eglinton

 

[kEiThZ]

Bringing the discussion back...so should Eglinton West be part of Phase 1?

 

[gweed123]

Updated version of the map, including the proposed BRTs. Naturally, these routes and alignments are up for debate.

And as for Eglinton West, I think we should list it as "priority #1 in Phase II, to be accelerated if funds become available". We still need to make the distinction that the central portion is the priority.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Having both the DRL (running north of Bloor) and a Jane LRT does not make sense.

 

[nfitz]

Depends on timeframe .... And subway to Eglinton won't do anything to serve Jane north of Eglinton. West DRL should at least extend to Jane, if it goes to Eglinton (though I don't know how it runs up the tracks, given GO has used all the space ... but that's a different issue).

I'm surprised there is no plan here to extend St. Clair west to Jane - that's a cheap one.

And here's a radical thought. If the East DRL goes to Eglinton/Don Mills, the stop spacing is going to be limited (O'Connor/Thorncliffe/Eglinton?). Why not extend the LRT down Don Mills to Overlea, and then west to intersect the subway again at Thorncliffe, this would allow service to the very busy Flemingdon Area, with some extra stops in Thorncliffe.

And here's the really radical thought ... send the Don Mills LRT from Thorncliffe to Redway somehow, down Redway to Bayview along the old CPR alignment to near the Bloor-Bayview DVP ramp (or just along Bayview) and then up somehow (along Bayview ramp? new viaduct) into Castle Frank.

Here's a second really radical thought ... instead of sending the Don Mills LRT to Castle Frank ... from Bayview/Redway (aka Bayview/Nesbitt) find a way (a bit of tunnel?) to get it to St. Clair East/Mount Pleasant into St. Clair station. Now that would be a great transit link, providing a service that cars and buses can't compete with ... and would still work well if the DRL was constructed!

 

[gweed123]

Having both the DRL (running north of Bloor) and a Jane LRT does not make sense.

It's actually a BRT, and it kinda does. They are designed to serve 2 different travel patterns and types. The BRT along Jane is meant for a more local service, as well as to bring people quickly to and from the subway. The DRL north of Bloor is intended mainly to provide another N-S subway option to reach downtown.

Also, the BRT is something we can implement in a matter of a couple years. If the subway eats up too much of the passenger base of the Jane BRT to make it viable, it can always be cancelled or reduced, as it won't cost much capitally to implement in the first place.

And yes nfitz, you're right, we did forget about St. Clair (and Spadina for that matter). I will add those into the next map.

 

[gweed123]

I decided to post the distances for the lines in here, so that people can crunch the numbers. I've separated the lines into the various portions that will require different construction techniques (ie on Eglinton the Richview corridor is measured separately).

Note: BRTs have not been included, as the routes and alignments have not been finalized.

 

[Fresh Start]

Depends on timeframe .... And subway to Eglinton won't do anything to serve Jane north of Eglinton. West DRL should at least extend to Jane, if it goes to Eglinton (though I don't know how it runs up the tracks, given GO has used all the space ... but that's a different issue).

I'm surprised there is no plan here to extend St. Clair west to Jane - that's a cheap one.

No. We don't need a subway to Jane-Eglinton. It's roaming parkland. It is better to route the Jane BRT into Mount Dennis Stn whereby passengers can have a direct transfer onto the DRL, GO Transit, and local Weston Road and Jane buses. We'd be creating an unnecessary transfer through building a Eglinton Flats stop, which also eats up our budget.

And the DRL most likely would be along an elevated guideway in-between Eglinton and just north of St Clair as not to interfere with GO and freight. For Rogers Rd Stn this would make a lot of sense because street level and track level currently is a 100m drop. I keep giving y'all the answers but you're not paying attention. Back on pg. 19:

As for extending the 512 to Jane, that is not as large-scale a project as BRT/LRT/HRT so that's why it probably isn't on the map, but I'm sure they've thought of it.

And here's a radical thought.

Do you know how much money that'd eat up and how much excessive overlapping of service that'd be? Keep it simple silly: Gerrard Square, Danforth/Pape, Mortimer, O'Connor, Throncliffe Park Dr E, Overlea/Gateway, St Dennis/Don Mills. Decent stop spacing hitting up at least one trip-generator at every station.

 

[Fresh Start]

Bringing the discussion back...so should Eglinton West be part of Phase 1?

Yes. RHC extension and Sherway Gdns extension can wait, as I see that you've prioritized them in SOS v6. Having a subway to the airport has been a TTC/City of Toronto priority for far longer and if not for the Harris gov't we'd probably have it by now. It's in Network 2011, Yonge North isn't! A stop extension to Steeles for now would not cost more than $500 m. Likewise elevated or trenched ROW (or a mixture of both methods) through Etobicoke will lower the expenditure of Eglinton subway construction. Torontonians shouldn't have to pay a premium fare to get decent public transit to the airport. Weston shouldn't have to have street closures. Commuters in Brampton and Georgetown shouldn't have to endure longer travel times because of split service or a time-prohibitive ROW diversion through the airport grounds. Finch LRT shouldn't have to extend past Humber College due to lack of other reliable E-W services to that point. And making Eglinton transit and DRL transit have mode compatibility means that interlined trips directly from Pearson to the CBD can be achieved. If you're going to ignore the most crucial part of the Crosstown LRT's purpose, then you may as well keep that corridor as LRT and push for full grade-separation right across instead.

 

[nfitz]

No. We don't need a subway to Jane-Eglinton. It's roaming parkland. It is better to route the Jane BRT into Mount Dennis Stn whereby passengers can have a direct transfer onto the DRL, GO Transit, and local Weston Road and Jane buses.

Fair enough ... I was just trying to connect the Jane RT to the subway; and that should work.

Do you know how much money that'd eat up and how much excessive overlapping of service that'd be?

There'd be some overlap ... but nothing on the scale of building 2 subways to SRT!

Keep it simple silly

Why do you have the need to start insulting people by making personal attacks! I see absolutely no need for that kind of thing, and I think such needless language only will only escalate.

Gerrard Square, Danforth/Pape, Mortimer, O'Connor, Throncliffe Park Dr E, Overlea/Gateway, St Dennis/Don Mills.

And Eglinton/Don Mills? That's kind of overkill isn't it? It's only 400 metres from Eglinton to St. Dennis ... essentially you've got one stop at the Ontario Science Centre, and a second stop at the north end of the parking lot. In addition to get from Thorncliffe Park East to Overlea/Gateway (only an 800-metre distance) you have to have a Don River crossing. Wouldn't the TTC design from the 1970s make more sense, with a single Don Valley crossing from the Donlands/O'Connor area to the Overlea/Gateway area. Thornecliffe park is neglected, but it would still have very good bus service to the subway ... or LRT/BRT if the Don Mills RT continued.

The problem with putting a lot of stops together is that though you serve the area well, you create problems in the future when the subway extends further ... presumably it will be to Markham by 2100 or so. So by some short extensions of LRT/BRT, you can overlap a bit, and provide local service. I agree though that if you really put that many subway stations in, that there is no point extending LRT service.

And this is where I think a subways-only plan falls short. I don't see that building LRT precludes the later construction of subway ... if anything it could make the future construction more efficient, as it would need less stations (imagine extending Sheppard subway in the future with stops only at Victoria Park, Agincourt, and Scarborough Centre ...).

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

It's actually a BRT, and it kinda does. They are designed to serve 2 different travel patterns and types. The BRT along Jane is meant for a more local service, as well as to bring people quickly to and from the subway. The DRL north of Bloor is intended mainly to provide another N-S subway option to reach downtown.

Also, the BRT is something we can implement in a matter of a couple years. If the subway eats up too much of the passenger base of the Jane BRT to make it viable, it can always be cancelled or reduced, as it won't cost much capitally to implement in the first place.

The City is focused on LRTs in their own ROW and subways...not BRTs. Your idea of a Jane BRT would be dismissed in a heartbeat.

 

[nfitz]

... the whole plan will be dismissed in a heartbeat ... but that doesn't stop anyone!

 

[gweed123]

The City is focused on LRTs in their own ROW and subways...not BRTs. Your idea of a Jane BRT would be dismissed in a heartbeat.

The old transit master plan was also dismissed in a heartbeat when TC came along... Plans can change, policies can change.

And the city is not focused on subways at all. The only new subways being built aren't even in Toronto (aside from the few stops inside of Toronto before they extend into Vaughan and Richmond Hill). The city is instead focused on this idea that at-grade LRT is good for long-haul trips to reach an already nearly overcrowded subway system. It is a misguided set of policies, and it is a waste of money.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Just curious to know what major players do you currently have on your side to argue in favour of your plan?

 

[nfitz]

The only new subways being built aren't even in Toronto (aside from the few stops inside of Toronto before they extend into Vaughan and Richmond Hill).

That's a bit disingenuous, almost 75% of the only extension currently being built is in Toronto, and the entire thing was planned as a Toronto-only extension until the final 2 stations were added on by the province.

And in the planning list, the only funded subway is a 10-km, 12-station streetcar subway under Eglinton, which is entirely in Toronto!

A better question might be, why are all the planned extensions in North York, given that all 3 subway additions constructed in Toronto in the last quarter-century were also in North York.