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saveoursubways (SOS)

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This coming from someone who thinks Etobicoke requires two subways.

I'm only pushing for one subway, the Eglinton West subway, to be built if two subways are built in Scarborough. Right now Scarborough has 3 subway stations and 5 ALRT/LRT stations, Etobicoke has 4 subway stations and zero ALRT/LRT stations. Scarborough also has better coverage with a subway/ALRT system running up from the south into the middle of the area in addition to the Sheppard subway sitting on its border compared to Etobicoke which has poor coverage.
 
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I'm only pushing for one subway, the Eglinton West subway, to be built if two subways are built in Scarborough. Right now Scarborough has 3 subway stations and 5 ALRT/LRT stations, Etobicoke has 4 subway stations and zero ALRT/LRT stations. Scarborough also has better coverage with a subway/ALRT system running up from the south into the middle of the area in addition to the Sheppard subway sitting on its border compared to Etobicoke which has poor coverage.

Scarborough is twice the size of Etobicoke, if such pure symbolism is all you're caring about. The Spadina extension will be useful for Rexdale...more useful, in fact, than Sheppard is for north Scarborough in its stubway form.
 
More than prioritizing subways per se, we should look at alternatives. As long as these things are costing 300m/km we wont get any notable investment in them beyond a few token extensions.
The funny thing is that it doesn't cost 300m/km. The TTC has propped up the costs of subway building substantially, and realistically those figures should be peaking at 300m/km. I agree that there are tonnes of alternative RT design, and I've noted a few of the possibilities. A simple trench on the Richview corridor on Eglinton West, as well as a raised guideway along the 427/Dixie road stretch to the airport. On Don Mills north of Eglinton, a raised guideway could easily be put up in the centre of the street, which could substantially bring down subway costs (maybe under $150/km.) Same with Eglinton east of Don Mills, a guideway could easily be put up (though it might require more creativity with the corridor.) The only places that full-blown tunneling is needed is the Yonge Extension, Sheppard Extension and Eglinton section between Keele and Laird. There's contingency for more tunneling in other sections (like extending the tunneled portion of Eglinton or boring some parts of the DRL,) but there are practices that could substantially lower the costs of subways that the TTC simply hasn't looked into, which I consider very irresponsible.

Even in super dense cities like Manhattan or London, despite a definite lack of capacity, it has been near impossible to work up enough money to build new lines. The 2nd Avenue subway has been on the books since the days of Weimar. The only people who are really building full bore subways, like you see along Yonge, are in despotic places like China where they can just draw lines on a map and fund them infinitely.
Hmm, then I'm interested why New York's getting work started on the 2nd Avenue subway, and London's in the midst of starting a new Underground expansion project. Paris is also jumpstarting Metro expansion with a new plan including several extensions and some new lines, if I'm not mistaken.

The only reason the 2nd Avenue subway has been out so long is because when the project was looked at in the 80s and early 90s, the government was in no mood to invest in either New York nor public transit. In the late 90s, it was stuck because it wasn't a new project, but it didn't have any government funding either, and it ended up taking a long time to get the public and politicians to remember how important the line is.

As for those "despotic places like China," I'd like to point out that China still has to get their raw materials from somewhere, which the government ends up buying. They don't starve their workers either. The reason they're building all these lines is because China has been in dire need of public transportation infrastructure for almost 50 years, and the Chinese government is putting massive amounts of money to make China and it's cities more sustainable and environmentally friendly. Not to mention that per capita, China has something like 1/5 of the GDP of Canada, yet is still able to provide all this funding.

To that end, we need to look at how to keep the best aspects of subways (high speed, developed stations, quick boarding ect...) while trying to bring the costs down to more manageable levels. Rapid transit construction in other jurisdictions has consisted quite overwhelmingly of smaller, cheaper systems. Copenhagen's new metro uses driverless light metro technology, London's DLR system, Turin's new metro, Vancouver's new Canada Line, Oslo's metro, a solid chunk of Taipei's metro all use smaller systems. Transit mad places like Singapore and Hong Kong are moving away from full blown subway because of the costs. Even in Madrid, a lot of their recent expansion is built more along this kind of approach than massive subways designed to haul tens of thousands of people an hour.
The reason is because these lines are supposed to be significantly lower capacity. In the case of the DLR, it's not supposed to be one of the main lines. It's supposed to create a network to provide a service to a specific area, not a main line like the YUS, B-D, DRL or Eglinton.

Oslo and Turin both have populations of less than 1 million, and Oslo already has a large network of Trams and Regional Rail.

The reason places like Hong Kong and Singapore are moving away from larger capacity systems is because they really don't need it. Both those cities already have huge networks, and the new lines are supposed to extend service rather than provide a huge additional capacity.

The SRT was a good step towards this goal, but it got stymied by autarchic politicians and questionable design choices. Despite that, its had fairly good success in Vancouver and, from what I understand, parts of Asia.
I actually can't believe this. You're saying that the SRT was a good thing?! Was it better than extending the B-D to STC? The lack of logic and common sense here is starting to surprise me.
 
I'm only pushing for one subway, the Eglinton West subway, to be built if two subways are built in Scarborough. Right now Scarborough has 3 subway stations and 5 ALRT/LRT stations, Etobicoke has 4 subway stations and zero ALRT/LRT stations. Scarborough also has better coverage with a subway/ALRT system running up from the south into the middle of the area in addition to the Sheppard subway sitting on its border compared to Etobicoke which has poor coverage.

As Scarberian pointed out the size difference matters. If you want to look at it by area....if the SRT were switched to a subway that would be 5 stations on the Bloor-Danforth. And if you extended the Sheppard subway, you'd get another 5...maybe 6. That's 10-11 stations for an area twice the size....or approaching the number of stations that North York has, which is a more analogous comparison.
 
Interesting debate.

I think the part of Eglinton that should be built as subway in the first phase is simply what is planned now as tunnelled LRT. And since subway rolling stock is cheaper than LRT, it makes sense. And on the extremities, we can use BRT and the busier the BRTS get we can slowly replace them with subway extensions.

Serving the airport with subway would be nice, but we've survived this long without it, and the LRT would take a very long time anyway (running on the street).

As for the DRL, I agree that the eastern DRL is the priority, from Union to Pape. And the planned Don Mills LRT can become a continuation of it when demand requires (that is, don't build the LRT, just build it as a subway continuation of the DRL).

As for the Etobicoke vs. Scarborough thing, well we're proposing extensions on ALL subway lines. Every. Single. One.

Bloor west to MCC.
Danforth east to STC.
Yonge north to RHC.
Spadina north to VMC.
Sheppard west to Downsview.

In summary, I'd prioritize as following:

PHASE ONE: DRL eastern leg; Sheppard west to Downsview, east to STC; Danforth to STC; Eglinton tunneled portion of TC as subway; Spadina to VMC (since its already starting)

PHASE TWO: Bloor to MCC; Yonge to RHC; DRL western leg; Eglinton West and East
 
I agree that Etobicoke is half the size so two subway extensions in Scarborough should equate to one subway into Etobicoke... not a couple of BRT routes. I do not agree that a Spadina extension is more valuable to Etobicoke than a Sheppard line to Don Mills is for Scarborough. The ridership numbers show the bulk of riders on the line originate at Don Mills and Don Mills sits right on the border of Scarborough. The Spadina extension is certainly a large improvement considering currently the fastest way downtown from Rexdale is a 11km bus ride to Kipling followed by a long subway ride. Rexdale after the extension will be the same distance (6km) from the subway as Agincourt is now from Sheppard but Agincourt is 2km from the ALRT. Currently UofT Scarborough is 5km from the ALRT.

Currently the SaveOurSubways campaign is cancel 3 LRTs in Scarborough for 2 subways and 1 BRT while cancelling 2 LRTs in Etobicoke for 2 busways. Not a great trade.
 
I have finished the subway map. I decided to take a page from TC and colour the existing subway infrastructure grey, so it is not the focus of the map. Solid lines for 15 year plan, dashed for 25.
 

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Currently the SaveOurSubways campaign is cancel 3 LRTs in Scarborough for 2 subways and 1 BRT while cancelling 2 LRTs in Etobicoke for 2 busways. Not a great trade.

Umm no... Scarborough is 2 subways and 3 BRTs (Kingston, Ellesmere, Malvern), and Etobicoke is 1 subway and 3 BRTs, one of which is slated to become a subway. Looking at only the short-term, I can see how someone from Etobicoke would see is it as a trade-down, but long-term, it's a much better deal. The subway extension to Sherway is in the 15 year plan, and MCC in the 25.

And, just as an example, travelling from Kipling to Yonge with the BRT+subway would be the same time as travelling along the continous LRT, as the LRT would have more station stops in the tunnelled area, which would negate the time saved by not having a transfer.
 
Note that of all the red areas on the map below almost all had LRT coverage in the Transit City Plan. Also note that the bulk of the population is west of Yonge but coverage is focused currently in the east, further covered in the east in phase 1, and doesn't really start serving the west until phase 2.
 

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I am beginning to wonder if it makes sense to drop the BRT plan and simply advocate for more subways. I am scared that this makes us look like a bunch of railfans.
What's wrong with just advocating for subways -- the backbone of our system for decades, and the mode advocated for expanding rapid transit in Toronto for decades until TC came along? Why fear pushing for what works, what we've been promised (until recently), and what most people want?
 
They don't starve their workers either. The reason they're building all these lines is because China has been in dire need of public transportation infrastructure for almost 50 years, and the Chinese government is putting massive amounts of money to make China and it's cities more sustainable and environmentally friendly.

The Chinese aren't exactly saints when it comes to urban sustainability or public transportation. At the same time that many major Chinese cities are planning and building massive subway systems, China is building an expressway network designed to surpass the US Interstate system, and what used to be some of the most bike-friendly cities in the world are now kicking cyclists off their streets in favour of more automobiles. I'm sure meeting demand for public transport is one reason for the subway construction boom, but the primary reason for their construction is that subways are prestige projects to demonstrate China's economic might.

The reason places like Hong Kong and Singapore are moving away from larger capacity systems is because they really don't need it. Both those cities already have huge networks, and the new lines are supposed to extend service rather than provide a huge additional capacity.

MTR's South Island Line is the only proposal for a light metro line in Hong Kong, and the decision to use smaller trains is because of of the lighter population density living along the route compared to the rest of the city. As for Singapore, their LRT systems are nothing but community people movers that shuttle people around a neighbourhood or to a local MRT station.

Asian light metros are only used for local services. I don't think those are the right examples to use here in Toronto, where we are speaking of big, cross-town routes.
 
The Chinese aren't exactly saints when it comes to urban sustainability or public transportation.
They might not have been in the past, but you'd be surprised as to what they're planning. Not only is the government calling for political reform, but also for huge increases in green technology and sustainability. Included in their plan of increasing civil liberties and rights is a sustainable development plan to accommodate more city-dwellers, higher fuel prices and the future world economy. While they're still able to force labor, veto complaints and push projects quickly, they're getting things like the Three Gorges Dam and new subways.

At the same time that many major Chinese cities are planning and building massive subway systems, China is building an expressway network designed to surpass the US Interstate system, and what used to be some of the most bike-friendly cities in the world are now kicking cyclists off their streets in favour of more automobiles.
The highway network is in accordance with capitalistic and economic growth. With the rise of the Chinese middle class, many people can now afford cars than they could a decade ago. Since China has over four times the population of the US, I think it makes sense to build a large highway system. The future of the plan isn't certain, and many expansions might not happen with future governments or other new developments, like peak oil. The governments are also desperately trying to promote biking, including building huge amounts of bike infrastructure, much more than Toronto's undertaking.

I'm sure meeting demand for public transport is one reason for the subway construction boom, but the primary reason for their construction is that subways are prestige projects to demonstrate China's economic might.
I think that displaying economic might isn't exactly a prime factor. It's economy still lags behind the US, giving it around 1/8 of the GDP per capita the US has. Most of the subways really are because the lines are needed. The government has realized that subways are required to create strong cities, and have invested in subways and other mass transportation projects to make sure good habits and strong cities are built for the future.
 
I have finished the subway map. I decided to take a page from TC and colour the existing subway infrastructure grey, so it is not the focus of the map. Solid lines for 15 year plan, dashed for 25.

Just thoughts - feel free to reject :)

1. Eglinton: either pull the subway to the Airport in Phase I, or just build the Crosstown LRT. The proposed Jane - Don Mills subway design cannot be sold to anyone who is not a subway enthusiast, it just rings "transfer city forever".

Line to the Airport will resolve the "Scarborough vs Etobicoke" debate, too.

2. Bloor to Sherway Gardens: can be deferred till Phase II, to reduce Phase I cost.

3. Staged approach can be used on Yonge, to reduce Phase I cost: to Steeles in Phase I, to RHC in Phase II. Yonge / Steeles may not be a "logical terminus", but bus congestion is most severe between Finch and Steeles.

4. Why not retain the Finch West and STC - Malvern LRT lines in your proposal? Those lines are already funded. By dropping them, you immediately antagonize wards that would benefit from them. And your saving is not that big. Finch West is 800 M, STC - Malvern would be in the 500 M range. So, you are saving about 1.3 billion (actually, even less, once you count the cost of BRT replacements). This is not a lot, compared to your 15+ billion behemoth plan.
 
1. Eglinton: either pull the subway to the Airport in Phase I, or just build the Crosstown LRT. The proposed Jane - Don Mills subway design cannot be sold to anyone who is not a subway enthusiast, it just rings "transfer city forever".
As I've said before, build Pearson-Don Mills within the 15 year period, but make sure Jane-Don Mills gets built quickly. Jane-Pearson could be released as a quick extension, with construction maybe even starting before the original subway's finished.

EDIT: That means a Pearson-Don Mills subway should be included in the 15 year plan, but Jane-Don Mills should get built first as quickly as possible. Once that's assured, Pearson-Jane can get built.

2. Bloor to Sherway Gardens: can be deferred till Phase II, to reduce Phase I cost.
Agree, but going to MTC should still be within 25 years. I think a lot of study's needed there though, because one could argue that the Milton line could provide a good service as a metro-style Regional Rail. If it only stops at Sherway, Dixie and MCC anyways, it doesn't make much sense to basically overlap that service.

3. Staged approach can be used on Yonge, to reduce Phase I cost: to Steeles in Phase I, to RHC in Phase II. Yonge / Steeles may not be a "logical terminus", but bus congestion is most severe between Finch and Steeles.
Not sure what to think about this. I'd say that construction should get started on the DRL. After that's solid, Yonge should see a gradual extension. Basically open the parts of the line that are finished, starting with Steeles, maybe one at Clark, then 7/Langstaff. That could take between 5 and 10 years, but I think that phased approach would work quite well.
 
Why are people concerned with reducing the cost of Phase I? All that does is increase the cost of Phase II. We should shift all of Phase I to Phase II, then skip Phase I entirely so we can start right away on Phase II.
 
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