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saveoursubways (SOS)

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I'm trying to push a one seat ride to Yonge subway on Eglinton West with no subway east of Yonge. I think there are a significant number of users who will go to Yonge from Eglinton between Weston and 427 but the number who would go from stations between Weston and Avenue Road to Don Mills is much less. Because Yonge is the most likely transfer point for people anyways the switch from subway to bus makes the most sense here.

The main purpose of the Eglinton line, regardless of if it is built as an LRT or as a subway, is as an east-west connector. As such, it would be logical to have the subway intersect the most amount of N-S routes possible (it's the same principle behind the Sheppard West extension. It is to make it more convienient for existing riders as opposed to capturing significant new ridership). Eglinton Flats to Science Centre has 4 (5 if you include the DRL), with 4 of those 5 being subways. We also cannot underestimate the densification happening on Eglinton east between Yonge and Bayview.

Also, with regards to Pearson, the majority of transit trips to Pearson originate from downtown. If there is an express rail service running from downtown to Pearson, why would people take 2 subway lines to get there in 10x longer of a time period?
 
Well, given that people who work at Pearson are employed at Pearson and people who are employed at Pearson tend to work at Pearson I would expect the amount of people employed at Pearson would equal the number of people who work there.
I'm not sure if you were being smart or if you didn't see the typo, but I meant to compare the amount of people that work at Pearson to the amount of people that fly out of Pearson each day.

If it was just as fast and cheaper, I see no reason why people wouldn't take buses. Toronto is uniquely well suited to this, given how developed the 427 & 401 corridors are. Even in cities with exceptional rail systems (London, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Kansai), buses are highly competitive for low budget travelers, offering point-point trips with many locations. Railways tend to cater to business travelers, a la Blue22.
You can't split the demographic in two like that, rich to rail and poor to busses. Poor people or "low-budget travelers" would be able to afford a subway (actually, subway would be more affordable than an airport Go bus or airport express bus.) There are also plenty of "business travelers" that take the bus because it can be express, or they're comfortable coaches, or even because it's cheaper.

Because it is almost universally more sensible to modify surface routes to serve subways than building subways to serve surface routes. One costs hundreds of millions of dollars and is permanent, the other will run more or less wherever we tell it to run.
Yes, but only to some degree. It doesn't make sense to divert a route kilometers just so it can hit a subway station. If you're using that logic, Yonge should have stayed at Eglinton and all the Steeles, Finch, Sheppard, York Mills and Lawrence busses should have funneled into a big Yonge BRT.

Who said anything about tunneling a BRT? The original plan for Eglinton West was to run a transit way along the Richview lands. I don't think tunneling is practical.
It is possible that I actually meant "funneling" instead of "tunneling." And if you're asking by what I mean when I say funneling, I'll tell you.

It means that it would make sense for every N-S rider along the western end of the City would be piling into Jane & Eglinton Station. Especially if you put a big BRT/Transitway to the station, it's just asking for a mass buss terminal. Essentially, it could recieve the entire ridership of the western leg of the B-D on one station. I think that's one thing that people don't understand. Certainly in Etobicoke, Eglinton would intercept every N-S bus route, and since it gets people on real RT faster, people will naturally head on it unless they work in southern Etobicoke. It'll also attract plenty of new transit commuters, both by local coverage, and also that it's now only a 2 km bus ride to the subway instead of 6. So it's ridership could easily be close to that of the B-D, and that's not even taking into account the massive development potential all along the Richview corridor. Adding that it goes to the airport, and adding that it hooks up with the Mississauga transitway, it's gonna get a lot of traffic heading everywhere at almost all times of the day.

A Richview Busway would also integrate exceedingly well into a Mississauga Transitway.
Again, if you think it makes sense to put even more pressure on the route, then fine. I doubt that many people would be interested in going from MCC along a BRT for over 16 kilometers just to transfer onto the subway for another half an hour to get downtown.

As sort of an aside, transit advocates need to be careful about what they say. Eventually you get to the point where what you say verges from sensible public policy to fanaticism. A subway from Jane to YYZ would be in the 2-3b range. That is a huge, massive, amount of money for a line with quite mediocre ridership potential. If we put that money into a prudent portfolio, the interest payments alone would equal about 50% of the TTC's current operating deficit. Network 2011 went to great lengths explaining why Eglinton West would operate quite well as a busway and didn't need a subway. The only reason the subway version got moving was to evenly distribute spending, a dubious basis for spending in an amalgamated City of Toronto.
I'd really like to know your definition of "mediocre ridership potential." A subway from Jane to YYZ would vary depending on the route and building choice, but it could easily hover around 2b, which I think is hardly a big determent considering how important the route can be. Before I get the big lecture on how money doesn't grow on trees, blah blah blah, I'd like to point out the service that it provides, and that assuming the eastern sections is not built until later funding, the line would come out pretty much even with the LRT.
 
These people could take the B/D line that already goes from Scarborough to Yonge, of course. Or create the Sheppard East LRT and cannibalize Sheppard's potential?

Uh, these people are already taking the B/D line.

Extend Bloor to the airport and all a 'crosstown' Eglinton line would offer is a redundant way to get from Scarborough to Mississauga.

Why the preoccupation with Sheppard? Did the Sheppard subway run over your puppy?
 
You should be careful not to claim that BRT is some magic bullet for every corridor while at the same time deriding so-called "LRTistas" who think LRT is the solution for all things. Both have their advantages an disadvantages but bus lanes everywhere certainly aren't going to force significant modal shift.

BRT comes in all shapes and sizes:
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Couple of points:

1) SOS is advocating for all those subways to get built. We aren't picking and choosing. What we'd like advice on is how they should get prioritized. What's a lock for sure for us is the Sheppard Subway to STC, the Bloor-Danforth extension to STC, the YUS extensions and the DRL East in the first tranche. The question that remains after is what portions of Eglinton should be in the first tranche and should DRL West be in the first tranche.

2) As far as the BRT network goes. It's main purposes are to feed the subway network and fill in some gaps where we can't put in subways. It's there to help us round out the plan. But for us, the subway network is by far the priority.
 
Why does everybody assume that Blue22/UPRL would be too expensive for airport employees? I am sure some kind of discount plan could be worked out for them. I don't think the rail consortium would pass up such an easy market with no effort at all. The subway connection can even be used as a bargaining chip to win that concession.
 
More than prioritizing subways per se, we should look at alternatives. As long as these things are costing 300m/km we wont get any notable investment in them beyond a few token extensions. Even in super dense cities like Manhattan or London, despite a definite lack of capacity, it has been near impossible to work up enough money to build new lines. The 2nd Avenue subway has been on the books since the days of Weimar. The only people who are really building full bore subways, like you see along Yonge, are in despotic places like China where they can just draw lines on a map and fund them infinitely.

To that end, we need to look at how to keep the best aspects of subways (high speed, developed stations, quick boarding ect...) while trying to bring the costs down to more manageable levels. Rapid transit construction in other jurisdictions has consisted quite overwhelmingly of smaller, cheaper systems. Copenhagen's new metro uses driverless light metro technology, London's DLR system, Turin's new metro, Vancouver's new Canada Line, Oslo's metro, a solid chunk of Taipei's metro all use smaller systems. Transit mad places like Singapore and Hong Kong are moving away from full blown subway because of the costs. Even in Madrid, a lot of their recent expansion is built more along this kind of approach than massive subways designed to haul tens of thousands of people an hour.

The SRT was a good step towards this goal, but it got stymied by autarchic politicians and questionable design choices. Despite that, its had fairly good success in Vancouver and, from what I understand, parts of Asia.
 
I think the concerns of some members are valid. I am beginning to wonder if it makes sense to drop the BRT plan and simply advocate for more subways. I am scared that this makes us look like a bunch of railfans.

The original idea behind developing a minimal BRT network was that it would complement the subway plan and provide major selling points: we can have the BRT up and running in its entirety much sooner and for cheaper than TC, we can provide more regional focus (connection to the 905 for example), etc. But if the BRTs are distracting us from our goal of more subway expansion, then I have no issues with dropping them altogether (group consensus required though).
 
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By over doing it with BRT it makes us look like we are trying to hit the same general areas but infilling the areas missed (due to the cost difference between LRT and Subway) with cheaper BRT. So I guess a "you want your cake and eat it to argument" might arise. I think we really have to think hard and justify not just where we are building our subways but why and where we are building the BRT. Otherwise it will look like we are substituting BRT for LRT.

I don't think DRL West needs to be in the first phase. As long as Eglinton West is built in the first phase I think the West has more options transit wise (Spadina Subway, Jane LRT, improved GO, etc)
 
gweed's going to post up a subway only map. Then we can see if any additions are required and go from there.
 
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