News   May 31, 2024
The Diamond Colourfully Clad in Junction Wallace-Emerson
 186     3 
News   May 31, 2024
Seven Towers Up to 43 Storeys Proposed in Brampton's Bram East
 815     1 
News   May 31, 2024
Leader Lane Bringing Sustainable Rental to Mimico
 684     0 

Rob Ford's Toronto

Status
Not open for further replies.
Seems like a pissing match between the two forces was played out in the media, with media getting the facts wrong in a rush to break a story.

All can be mended with TPS getting the information needed, and the OPP can then update their take on the case at the arrest press conference.
 
Cooper said:
Hi Pud... Do you (or anyone else) have a sense of the timeline of the recovery of the phone data? I seem to recall the TPS saying they had to get another warrant to review it because the initial warrant was granted in relation to a drug investigation rather than an extortion investigation. I've been wondering for a while if the TPS has really gone through the data yet, a possibility you raise in this post. You seem to have a handle on law-type stuff, so do have any insight on whether this is plausible?
Click to expand...

Dubster posted, at 4:10 today: [emphasis added]

“I know I did nothing wrong,” Ford said Thursday after reports emerged of a dispute between the OPP and local police in the investigation into him. “I knew the day was going to come that I’d be cleared and I guess today’s the day.”

But Det-Sgt. Gary Giroux, the Toronto Police homicide detective leading the investigation, said that is not the case.

“I have seen some of those comments myself,” the officer said. “What I am seeing on the news is not overly accurate. It’s my investigation, and my investigation is still going.”

Search warrant documents unsealed by a consortium of media lawyers revealed that Toronto Police took an iPhone belonging to Alexander “Sandro” Lisi, the mayor’s friend and former driver, to California where Apple Inc. unlocked 10 gigabytes of data.

Asked whether he has gone through the evidence that is on the phone, Det.-Sgt. Giroux declined to comment.

“Evidentiary stuff, I can’t get into,” he said.

Both CTV and CBC reported Thursday that the Crown says charges are unlikely.

But Project Brazen 2 is an “ongoing criminal investigation,” Toronto police spokesman Mark Pugash said.

“When it’s finished we expect to sit down with the Crown and the OPP [Ontario Provincial Police] and we will jointly decide what the next steps are.”
 
Sweet Mister said:
I find this baffling. It's not either/or. Both can be true. One doesn't negate the other.

I think what really happened is this: OPP would only sign off on this case if they felt sure it was going to stick. Otherwise it would reflect badly on them. They have no investment in the case at all -- TPS gets all the credit if it goes well. So they have absolutely no incentive to take any chances. They spotted potential weaknesses and pushed back. TPS then went to the press, at which point OPP said, OK, FU, you want to play it like that we can do the same. They get a friendly Crown attorney to go over the evidence with them and say it's not strong enough. And here we are.
Click to expand...

I think this is plausible, but optimistic. The OPP's concern about Ford possibly being the victim might be that a lack of charges against Siad could give the appearance of a biased investigation or that evidence could benefit ford in his defense. I think the more pessimistic angle is that someone is trying to protect Ford, and that they're going to push back on the investigation until/unless the case becomes so strong they have no choice but to support charges. Given how resilient Ford continues to be through all this crap I'm inclined to think there's something deeper than just a pissing match between the two forces.

The comment that there's simply nothing *new* for them to look at, and implying that the decision about how to proceed with the work that's already been done is up to TPS and the Crown suggests the OPP wants to appear neutral. Maybe the murmur about OPP not getting all the info has to do with charges outside the scope of Brazen 2, particularly the "heinous" one? If such other charges are made, the OPP wouldn't want to look like they killed Brazen 2, the optics would be horrible. Or, more pessimistically, even if no other charges are likely, the OPP still won't want to be the ones taking heat for killing the investigation so they'll continue to play up the angle that they're willing to sign off on charges but TPS didn't provide enough evidence.

My wild guess is that an arrest now hinges mostly on other non-extortion charges, or new evidence appearing in Brazen 2.
 
Still not clear though. Is it possible TPS hasn't gotten to the extortion data yet due to legal roadblocks?
 
basic said:
Still not clear though. Is it possible TPS hasn't gotten to the extortion data yet due to legal roadblocks?
Click to expand...

According to the ITO docs, they have the iPhone data and permission to review it. Whether they have reviewed it yet (in whole or in part) is a question that Giroux declined to answer (see Dubster's post at 4:10 pm today).
 
Last edited:
pud99 said:
According to the ITO docs, they have the iPhone data and permission to review it. Whether they have reviewed it yet (in whole or in part) is a question that Giroux declined to answer (see Dubster's post at 4:10 pm today).
Click to expand...

Thanks.
 
Nothing to add, and I'm going for a long walk. But the posts have been really remarkable. I don't doubt an outstanding investigative team could be assembled from some of the contributors here today.
 
I can't even make a list of all the things that are unclear about what's going on. There are conflicting stories....

I mean Giroux is surprised?
The OPP didn't get any new info? What does that even mean? New from when? If they're just doing oversight and TPS is still investigating, why would OPP just suddenly withdraw?
What exactly is the Crown even saying here?
Have they gone through the iPhone? If not, what's taking so long and if so, why doesn't OPP know jack about it and is there a smoking gun or not?

I could go on but I agree with the school of thought that this is a territorial pissing match between the two police forces. I don't think it's any kind of exoneration of Ford but it's not a step in the right direction either. The circumstantial evidence here is so substantial (why is Lisi calling Ford in the midst of calling all these other people?!?!?) it's amazing to think they couldn't turn that corner to nail it down.

I've gone from shocked to baffled to depressed to shocked and now I'm back at baffled and the somewhat contradictory reports coming out are not helping.
 
basic said:
Absolutely. It's now difficult having a logical discussion with the friends/acquaintances that I have been talking to who as of today are convinced Brazen 2 is done and Ford is clear for good.
Click to expand...

Rob Ford's lawyer on CP24: "I don't know why people are celebrating. This isn't over"
Reporter: "Sir, it's your client that's saying he's been exonerated"

Ford's not even on the same page as his lawyer.
 
'Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk' - Thoreau

The problem with that is that you can't prove what Rob and Lisi were talking about, nor can you compel them to testify. In order to make a conspiracy to extort charge stick you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Rob knew what Lisi was up to, in particular that he was using threats. The circumstantial evidence just doesn't get you there unfortunately, nor does all the hearsay on the wiretaps.
 
Sweet Mister said:
'Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk' - Thoreau

The problem with that is that you can't prove what Rob and Lisi were talking about, nor can you compel them to testify. In order to make a conspiracy to extort charge stick you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Rob knew what Lisi was up to, in particular that he was using threats. The circumstantial evidence just doesn't get you there unfortunately, nor does all the hearsay on the wiretaps.
Click to expand...

It's amazing to me that Lisi seems to want to be the only person to go down for this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top