Interesting post nfitz. I hadn't considered the possibility of the tracks going through the centre of the traffic circle. I have just never seen it implemented, so I wasn't sure how well it would work.
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Roads: Roundabouts
- Thread starter BMO
- Start date
innsertnamehere
Superstar
they are currently building a round-about in uxbridge. looking forward to driving in it!
reaperexpress
Senior Member
The great thing about roundabouts is they function on uncertainty. The Dutch traffic engineer Hans Monderman, father of "shared space", is a huge fan of roundabouts, precisely because they make people nervous.
It turns out that when people are nervous, they overcompensate in their alertness the same way that when they feel safe, they overcompensate and are more likely to drive too fast or not pay attention.
That's not to say there won't be any collisions, I'm sure there will be. But unlike a stop sign or a signalized intersection, there is little chance of a serious one. Although people feel more comfortable at a regular intersection, the fact is that you are much more likely to be injured or killed at one, partly because people are more comfortable with them.
I agree they should be primarily used on secondary streets, because two-lane roundabouts are much more hostile to pedestrians and cyclists than single lane roundabouts.
Agreed, especially in such a pedestrian-centric area like downtown. Intersections that come to mind are: Sherbourne and Gerrard, Sherbourne and Shuter, Harbord and St. George, Gerrard and Church, Wellesley and Church, and maybe a couple other locations.
These intersections are areas that see a fair amount of traffic flow, but are not really considered to be major streets in downtown (they aren't Yonge, Queen, Jarvis, or Spadina).
Obviously there a few small residential streets that could use them too, if for nothing else than a community focal point, to be used as public space.
ShonTron
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I'd like to see more minor intersections equipped with four-way stops to be replaced with low-speed traffic circles (there are some in Rosedale, Forest Hill and North Toronto), but I'm not in favour of roundabouts in established urban settings. I'd prefer intersections such as Church and Wellesley to continue as regular signalized intersections. Roundabouts work better as traffic calming measures for medium traffic roadways in suburban areas as alernatives to 4-way stops or traffic lights. Ira Needles Blvd in Waterloo is a medium-traffic suburban arterial where intersections are handled almost exclusively by modern roundabouts, and I like it. The one MTO roundabout, on Highway 33 outside Picton is another roundabout best practice.
Gerrard and Church certainly won't work because of the streetcar tracks.
Gerrard and Church certainly won't work because of the streetcar tracks.
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nfitz
Superstar
Gerrard and Church wouldn't work because there isn't space to put the roundabout in safely. You need tapered entrances and exits - and you can't do that in a typical city street.
Might work on University, and around Queens Park. Maybe even at Front and York, or Bay and Queen. But wouldn't work in most existing locations.
Mapleson
Active Member
Do you really believe people don't understand 4-way stops, or they merely do not wish to obey a rule that impedes them more then necessary? Do you come to a full and complete stop everytime or do you do rooling stops as well? Isn't it better to make the rules reflect the driving style being used so that everyone is playing from the same book?
Those 100k residents will move in after this roundabout is here, and will drive on it at least semi-frequently. I would be more worried about some yokel who's never seen a roundabout before trying to turn left, then regular users. The concept is easy enough: if there is a car in your way, don't go, if not go.
I'll be a bit more radical here and say we should do way with 4-way stops almost all together. Instead I'd adopt the British system and use Major-minor intersections, where one road is always given priority over the other. A four-way stop is more 'democratic' because everyone is held up at least a bit, but a Major-minor intersection has reduced impedence.
Anth
Active Member
There are those who are more aggressive at 4-ways and they aren't a problem if you drive defensively, but I seem to mostly see drivers without any clue of what to do and who should go first. The worst part is that these drivers do the wrong thing at lights as well. Just last week I had someone haltingly push through a left turn into oncoming traffic at Burnhamthorpe and Hurontario right in front of me as if it were a 4-way! I'm not exaggerating when I say the driving skill in the area is poor; there seems to be a disproportionately large number of new drivers in MCC.
I have nothing against roundabouts in general and I don't doubt the benefits once people are used to them, but this roundabout in particular seems contrived and ill thought out to me, especially in a metro area where they are rare and in a neighbourhood where a large number of drivers already have difficulty with more straightforward situations. That's all I'm saying.
confusion
Active Member
No I meant the west side (technically since it's part of the off ramp it is still part of Queen's Park Cresent), below the grade separation at the stop sign. That intersection is terrible for pedestrians, cyclists and cars.
Street View
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nfitz
Superstar
I've only driven it a handful of times ... is there much traffic?
Looks like a perfect place, physically, to put on.
MisterF
Senior Member
Well you have to start somewhere. They'll always be rare if you never build any. By the way, roundabouts are far more straightforward (so to speak) than traffic signals. Signals are more dangerous and have a lot more rules to follow.
Anth
Active Member
That's true; I'm just unsure that starting with Duke of York is a good idea if we want to promote them.
Btw, I probably should've said 'conventional' instead of 'straightforward', but I guess it doesn't change your point either way.
Btw, I probably should've said 'conventional' instead of 'straightforward', but I guess it doesn't change your point either way.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I was actually thinking more along the lines of suburban feeder roads such as Willowdale, Senlac, Faywood, Wilson Heights, because of the space issue downtown.
Maybe MCC drivers act like idiots because the road system allows them to. Our usual suburban road design is not at all demanding in terms of driving skill. Everything is handed to drivers on a plate with lines, signs and signals. Rather than paying attention to what's going on around them, drivers mainly focus on these signs. People often marvel at the competence of European drivers, but that's probably due to their road design which forces drivers to take control much more than ours does. Changing the road to force drivers to make their own decisions will increase the competence of drivers in the area, and as I said earlier, I don't expect this roundabout to cause issues, even to "new" drivers because these people will simply drive more cautiously if they are not familiar with the design.
Most people will know how to negotiate a roundabout, and those who don't can simply watch others and see how it works. As Mapleson pointed out, the rules aren't very complicated anyway. In this respect, this roundabout is better for "new" drivers than a small residential roundabout where there is often no one around to set an example.
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drum118
Superstar
That would work as well. Ideally to start off with they would be placed on collector roads that have too much volume for a 4-way stop, but not enough that it requires a full signalized intersection with turning lanes, etc. Ottawa is using them a lot on the main collector roads through subdivisions.