Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Kitsune]

America cities were doing horrible things back then. They were ripping apart historical buildings, demolishing people's homes and dividing neighbourhoods to get their freeways in. Imagine the Spadina Expressway got build right down to the Gardiner. What is Chinatown would look like Allen/Lawrence. Europeans would never accept that.

I thought the Spadina was to end at Harbord? Destructive is what the proposed 400 extension to the Gardiner would of done... or even the Gardiner through Scarborough to the 401.

 

[Steve X]

I thought the Spadina was to end at Harbord? Destructive is what the proposed 400 extension to the Gardiner would of done... or even the Gardiner through Scarborough to the 401.

The key word here is "imagine". That's what a lot of American cities did. Build freeways right through the downtown beside all the skyscrapers.

 

[darth_freeman]

Tunneling would avoid the whole "destroying neighbourhoods" thing.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tunneling would avoid the whole "destroying neighbourhoods" thing.

Not necessarily (given the need for access ramps) and we don't know the ROW requirements.

AoD

 

[ADRM]

Not necessarily (given the need for access ramps) and we don't know the ROW requirements.

AoD

The areas around literally every tunnel entrance in NYC are perfect proof of this point.

 

[Edward Skira]

The areas around literally every tunnel entrance in NYC are perfect proof of this point.

Just the pollution from all the cars waiting to enter the tunnels is enough to ruin whole neighbourhoods.

 

[ADRM]

Just the pollution from all the cars waiting to enter the tunnels is enough to ruin whole neighbourhoods.

Exactly. I used to work in a ritzy office building that overlooks one of the Holland Tunnel entrances, and the generous outdoor terraces didn't even have furniture on them because the air was so consistently gross around them.

There's some otherwise crazy valuable real estate around a bunch of the major NYC tunnel entrances.

Short story: neither vehicular tunnels or elevated expressways are particularly good things and it behooves cities to move away from both whenever and wherever reasonably possible.

 

[darth_freeman]

Looking at NYC, their bridges have dramatically more land use impacts than their tunnels, and keep in mind their tunnels have to go deep under a river.

 

[Steve X]

Tunneling would avoid the whole "destroying neighbourhoods" thing.

You still have to demolish all the buildings on top first before getting to cut and cover excavation. Historical building s like Casa Loma was to be demolished and tunneling won't save it.

The GTA really don't need tunnels and large bridges unlike NYC or Montreal since it's one continuous piece of land. There's no major river separating urban cores. Geography in NYC is vastly different than us and thus they have all those road infrastructure. They're pretty expensive to use daily which contribute to a large amount of public transit users.

 

[Johnny Au]

Montreal and Manhattan are both island cities with surface-level bedrock in most places.

Toronto however is mostly much softer soil on the mainland with bedrock beginning a few tens of metres below ground. Oh, and expanding shale too.

Unsurprisingly, there's more expressway tunnels in Montreal and Manhattan than in Toronto.

 

[Steve X]

How is the Toronto highway network is small? How about the suburbs and areas outside of Toronto? More highways!

If you count by length, Montreal appears to have more highway. However, if you count lanes, all those 4 or 6 lanes highways in Montrealdon't match the GTA at all.

 

[narduch]

And my own anecdotal evidence is that Montreal highway traffic is way worse than Toronto. It at least feels that way.

 

[toaster29]

People in Montreal are much more likely, from my experience, to use alternatives to highways than are people in Toronto.

 

[Steve X]

And my own anecdotal evidence is that Montreal highway traffic is way worse than Toronto. It at least feels that way.

I totally agree. They have a lot more potholes, lower standard, poor lane markings, narrow and lower speed limit. Instead of a collector-express, they have collector roads on like the A40. Don't expect 100 km/h to be posted, you'll find 70 km/h signs. Some highways like the A520 don't have free flow connection to other highways. Traffic light seriously on a highway? Construction lane markings are impossible to tell. I guess the locals just have a way to navigating it.

Ontario freeways just put them to shame. Even the DVP and Gardiner are better.

 

[ShonTron]

I totally agree. They have a lot more potholes, lower standard, poor lane markings, narrow and lower speed limit. Instead of a collector-express, they have collector roads on like the A40. Don't expect 100 km/h to be posted, you'll find 70 km/h signs. Some highways like the A520 don't have free flow connection to other highways. Traffic light seriously on a highway? Construction lane markings are impossible to tell. I guess the locals just have a way to navigating it.

Ontario freeways just put them to shame. Even the DVP and Gardiner are better.

Quebec's Autoroutes are weird. Some are Super-2s, some are almost-but-not-quite freeways, and some are overbuilt relics, especially in the Quebec City area. There's the long and slow A20 section through Ile-Perrot and Vaudreuil, but at least there are alternatives: A40 or A30, both of which connect well. The A20/A520 interchange is being upgraded with improved connections to the airport.

Ontario isn't perfect: until recently, Highway 406 wasn't complete as a multilane freeway, and Highway 420 never will be. Even in the US, there are some notable gaps in the interstate network. Interstate 70 has a few lights in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania.