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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

My only complaint with the HOT lanes is, if they go the route with transponders, they'll have to install those thin, plastic, pole, barrier things on the highway, dividing the HOT lanes and the regular lanes.

Video starting at 1:45 shows what I'm talking about

Those poles tend to litter the highway after awhile due to cars hitting them, running them over, etc. In my opinion, they make the highway look ugly.

This video was shot in Texas where it hardly snows. In Ontario, how will the plows manage to not damage those poles in the winter?
 
hawc said:
This is great news! I love the idea that rich people will no longer have to be stuck in poor person traffic jams. Great idea that there are different economic classes to the roads that everyone's taxes build and maintain. If I'm rich why shouldn't I get the privealge to bypass the poor? See you later suckers. Don't want to be stuck in traffic jams? Work harder!
Click to expand...

Or just find someone to drive with you :)
 
I've driven that section of highway in Texas, as well as variable-rate toll roads in Minnesota and I think through Chicago and DC as well. The whole point is that these other systems are intelligent and variable rate - the rate changes as demand warrants, to regulate flow. Sometimes it's free. I'm not sure how well a "dumb" or Pay-One-Price system will work in practice.

I have the same sort of mixed feelings about queue-bypass systems at theme parks (FastLane in the Cedar Fair parks, Quick Queue at Busch, Flash Pass at SixFlags) - very expensive systems which permit a limited number of people to entirely bypass the queue and simply walk on to a ride, even though it might have an hour+ line up. I've used these systems at parks I visit that are far away, that I might only get to visit once or twice in my life (feeling guilty the whole time), but I'd never waste money on it at Wonderland since I can just choose to go there on a less-busy day since it's my home park. I guess the analogy would be that one could choose a career that offers flex time that permits them to commute outside of heavy congestion periods.

All of this will go away hopefully in 20 years when we're all riding in self-driving cars at 100+ km/h with a 0.5 m gap between them thus drastically increasing the capacity of the existing highway system. :)
 
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Bojaxs said:
My only complaint with the HOT lanes is, if they go the route with transponders, they'll have to install those thin, plastic, pole, barrier things on the highway, dividing the HOT lanes and the regular lanes.

Video starting at 1:45 shows what I'm talking about

Those poles tend to litter the highway after awhile due to cars hitting them, running them over, etc. In my opinion, they make the highway look ugly.

This video was shot in Texas where it hardly snows. In Ontario, how will the plows manage to not damage those poles in the winter?
Click to expand...

This would never be done in Ontario because of snow. End of story. We have had HOV lanes for years already and the wide buffer does the job.
 
Duck said:
I've driven that section of highway in Texas, as well as variable-rate toll roads in Minnesota and I think through Chicago and DC as well. The whole point is that these other systems are intelligent and variable rate - the rate changes as demand warrants, to regulate flow. Sometimes it's free. I'm not sure how well a "dumb" or Pay-One-Price system will work in practice.

I have the same sort of mixed feelings about queue-bypass systems at theme parks (FastLane in the Cedar Fair parks, Quick Queue at Busch, Flash Pass at SixFlags) - very expensive systems which permit a limited number of people to entirely bypass the queue and simply walk on to a ride, even though it might have an hour+ line up. I've used these systems at parks I visit that are far away, that I might only get to visit once or twice in my life (feeling guilty the whole time), but I'd never waste money on it at Wonderland since I can just choose to go there on a less-busy day since it's my home park. I guess the analogy would be that one could choose a career that offers flex time that permits them to commute outside of heavy congestion periods.

All of this will go away hopefully in 20 years when we're all riding in self-driving cars at 100+ km/h with a 0.5 m gap between them thus drastically increasing the capacity of the existing highway system. :)
Click to expand...
I have once made a thread in CWMania about something similar (involving disabilities): http://www.cwmania.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2940

Those with disabilities (physical, mental, developmental) with an Access 2 card could get something similar to FastLane, albeit one that is less immediate. However, unlike FastLane, the benefits are much fairer in that cardholders can get a waiting time.

Using this logic, perhaps those with disability permits could be able to use the HOT lanes without any passengers as well. Yes, this would give those with disability permits more advantages, not just usually-empty parking spaces very much next to entrances.
 
It's astonishing that people are ALREADY complaining about HOT lanes. Some people in this country are actually so out of touch from reality, that they have to complain about every single "issue".

For starters, nobody said that commuters have to use HOT lanes. It is clearly optional, and if you dont want to use it than dont complain. People have to start factoring in the true cost of driving (by true cost I dont mean the cost of just buying/leasing a car). If you cant pay up for parking, insurance, maintenance, gas, and miscellaneous than you really have no business owning a car whatsoever. There are so many people that think they are entitled to whatever they want because they own a car, and these same people don't factor in the true cost of owning a car.

If using a toll lane will really make that much of a difference in your financial life, the choice is simple: dont use the lanes, and change the way you commute.
 
arcum said:
This would never be done in Ontario because of snow. End of story. We have had HOV lanes for years already and the wide buffer does the job.
Click to expand...

I don't see why it would have to be flex posts either. If transponders need to be detected for HOT lanes, why not use a gantry of the type used for overhead signs? That's what some road pricing/congestion charge systems use.
 
I would hope that they would use newer technology than transponders, like Vancouver's Treo.
treo_decal_placement_graphic_v2-2.png
 
jcam said:
I would hope that they would use newer technology than transponders, like Vancouver's Treo.
Click to expand...

I'm kinda surprised we still need a transponder at all.

I would have expected license plate recognition would have advanced to the point where we could simply have the person go to a website and register their plates (multiple if multiple vehicles) to their account, and make payment. There are numerous plate-recognition based parking enforcement systems out there.
 
Do we have any guesstimates as to how much HOT lanes will bring in as a revenue tool - either as this first phase or with a proper rollout? Once filtered through the bureaucracy, implementation, and operations - is it possible that the net revenue could be in the order of $Millions instead of tens or hundreds of $Millions?

And I guess this leads to the larger question of how far off the mark we are in terms of the implementation of planned revenue tools. How much of a gap needs filling to get the ~$2bn/yr we need for a +$50bn Big Move, what is the Prov/Metrolinx's financial plan for what projects will be built and when, and which projects will be downgraded/ignored/dropped?
 
rbt said:
"Estimates from the Toronto Region Board of Trade suggest HOT lanes could generate between $25 and $45 million in annual revenue if rolled out across the existing carpooling-lane network; however, Del Duca declined to speculate on what this small stretch will initially generate."

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...ng-in-2016-but-thats-about-all-we-know-so-far
Click to expand...

That sounds about right. Highway 407 has ~800 lane kilometres of toll lanes and makes about $1B revenue.

Once the 10 year timeframe HOV/T lanes are added on 401, 410, 427, and 400 in addition to the existing on QEW, 403, & 404, the province could make upwards of $100M per year - minus expenses of course.
 
In the interim I think an immediate priority could also be something like adding signs along our highways advising drivers to yield and make ample room for GO and Greyhound buses. Just to drive the point home about high and highest occupancy vehicles having greater importance on our highways.
 
44 North said:
In the interim I think an immediate priority could also be something like adding signs along our highways advising drivers to yield and make ample room for GO and Greyhound buses. Just to drive the point home about high and highest occupancy vehicles having greater importance on our highways.
Click to expand...
but if the goal was to give high occupancy vehicles priority, why are we allowing single occupancy vehicles to buy their way into the lanes that we built specifically for high occupancy vehicles.
 
TOareaFan said:
but if the goal was to give high occupancy vehicles priority, why are we allowing single occupancy vehicles to buy their way into the lanes that we built specifically for high occupancy vehicles.
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Excess capacity.
You allow some single-occupant vehicles to pay their way in, but only so many that it doesn't affect traffic flow in the lane. As the lane becomes congested, you raise the price until it's not congested anymore. In the meantime, you have an extra revenue stream.

The problem, is going to be converting existing lanes into new HOT lanes (like on the 401 through Toronto). At least when conversion is into HOV lanes, there's a notion that it's still a free public access lane (with stipulations). With HOT, there will be the immediate perception of compelling people to pay to use something they used to get for free. I don't envy the marketing team.
 
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