Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[cplchanb]

This highway is estimated to cost about 4 to 5 billion dollars. I think what Adjei is saying is that that money would be better spent on transit instead, because to be honest I'm having a hard time accepting the old style of thinking that you solve traffic congestion by building more highways.

The problem is that inadequate expressways NSEW has been a systemic issue that has plagued the GTA for years. There will always be more cars and it will continue to grow every year, regardless of the transit silver bullet. You can clearly see that on the DVP (which is another animal worth discussing separately) . 2 years ago during rush hour, gridlock on the 404/401 would taper off after Lawrence, but now its all the way past Don Mills. So unless you tax the purchase of vehicles like they do in Vietnam to the point of un-affordability, the number will only continue to grow. North America is car culture. Especially now since gas is so cheap.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Car culture isn't going away, definitely. But it's also true that we've invested WAY more in roads than transit over the past few generations. Everyone know that more roads does not lead to less traffic, even though it feels like it should. I think the notion that our "expressway deficit" creates problems is a myth. New York City has more highways than we could dream of and I'd still rather drive downtown from the 905 than from Long Island to Manhattan. Every time they opened a new parkway or a new bridge it filled up instantly, because that's what happens.

I thought this came out of nowhere but it's also very in sync with the province's general moves in terms of transit investment and climate change. Government hypocrisy is not new but the project was very much at odds with the Greenbelt and even Places to Grow in terms of how it facilitates opening new lands. At a macro level, it totally makes sense though I'm sure some landowners and drivers are less than thrilled today.

 

[TOareaFan]

This highway is estimated to cost about 4 to 5 billion dollars. I think what Adjei is saying is that that money would be better spent on transit instead, because to be honest I'm having a hard time accepting the old style of thinking that you solve traffic congestion by building more highways.

There is some truth in that.....but the areas served by this proposed road are, relatively speaking, new in terms of large scale population and have grown since the last highways were built. This is not a case of providing increased highway to this population it is a case of providing a highway to them......and unless we come up with a way to build transit such that no highway is needed at all (ie. transit that gets a modal share of movement far in excess of anything we have ever seen) then some sort of highway is going to be needed in that corridor.

 

[narduch]

My guess is that they do eventually build this highway.

They are just putting it off because they don't want to fund it yet.

I'm sort of split on this. On the one hand it should take some of the pressure of the 401 stretch. But you know eventually it will be lined with Smart Centre type developments and sprawling sub-divisions.

I wonder if the 407 wasn't a toll highway if this proposal would even be necessary.

 

[TOareaFan]

My guess is that they do eventually build this highway.

They are just putting it off because they don't want to fund it yet.

I'm sort of split on this. On the one hand it should take some of the pressure of the 401 stretch. But you know eventually it will be lined with Smart Centre type developments and sprawling sub-divisions.

I wonder if the 407 wasn't a toll highway if this proposal would even be necessary.

I would guess that it gets built in some form and, I would hope, it too is tolled....but, like the 407 extension, tolled to the benefit of the provincial coffers.

 

[salsa]

There is some truth in that.....but the areas served by this proposed road are, relatively speaking, new in terms of large scale population and have grown since the last highways were built. This is not a case of providing increased highway to this population it is a case of providing a highway to them......and unless we come up with a way to build transit such that no highway is needed at all (ie. transit that gets a modal share of movement far in excess of anything we have ever seen) then some sort of highway is going to be needed in that corridor.

When you say it's a case of "providing a highway to them", well not quite. Driving to Milton will still require using highway 401 (west of Mississauga), so I don't see how this is adding more capacity in a useful way. All this proposed highway does is provide a toll road that runs parallel to an existing toll road that is way underutilized to begin with.

You've probably seen those posters that shows how one streetcar is equivalent to dozens of cars, or how the subway ridership is equivalent to 20 freeway lanes. I've seen similar comparisons for the GO trains as well, (e.g Lakeshore West line vs QEW). There might be a case to be made for the GTA West highway, but I think it's absolutely the wrong priority right now when we have a Milton GO Line that has high ridership but woefully inadequate service that only runs peak hour, peak direction. Ditto for other GO lines. The province suggested that the highway could be outfitted with a dedicated transitway as a sop to transit users, but why is the 407 transitway not a higher priority than that? There is a lot more transit improvements that ought to be made before anyone should say "we did everything we can to get cars off the road - now we can build another highway".

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...ighway-forward-thinking-or-retro-mistake.html

 

[Translude15]

When you say it's a case of "providing a highway to them", well not quite. Driving to Milton will still require using highway 401 (west of Mississauga), so I don't see how this is adding more capacity in a useful way. All this proposed highway does is provide a toll road that runs parallel to an existing toll road that is way underutilized to begin with.

You've probably seen those posters that shows how one streetcar is equivalent to dozens of cars, or how the subway ridership is equivalent to 20 freeway lanes. I've seen similar comparisons for the GO trains as well, (e.g Lakeshore West line vs QEW). There might be a case to be made for the GTA West highway, but I think it's absolutely the wrong priority right now when we have a Milton GO Line that has high ridership but woefully inadequate service that only runs peak hour, peak direction. Ditto for other GO lines. The province suggested that the highway could be outfitted with a dedicated transitway as a sop to transit users, but why is the 407 transitway not a higher priority than that? There is a lot more transit improvements that ought to be made before anyone should say "we did everything we can to get cars off the road - now we can build another highway".

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...ighway-forward-thinking-or-retro-mistake.html

Yes, the province should focus its investment efforts on transit infrastructure before any highway expansion but even after implementing RER style service onto all GO lines, the travel patterns will still very much be downtown-centric. In order to increase the modal share of suburban commuters, there needs to be a viable alternative to driving which would likely come in the form of RER style train service, which in itself would cost billions but would be absolutely worthwhile for the region. The commute patterns to western GTA employment centres aren't as condensed as those found in central Toronto and as much as some would hope, given the ridiculous housing prices in the GTA, not everyone can work at some cute, progressive startup 10 minutes away from home.

As for the proposed GTA West highway, the proposed routing connects various industrial employment centres throughout the GTA (Mississauga, Brampton, Etobicoke and Vaughan) all of which rely heavily on truck transportation. Minimize the suburban development along the corridor and you've still got a legitimate bypass to the 401, 410 and 427, all of which are extremely busy highways by North American standards. At the very least, a new route would facilitate transportation and logistics, which would benefit many companies and industries.

Additionally, the area served by the proposed corridor currently contains close to a million people, the majority of which have limited options when travelling by car and usually end up on the 401 in some capacity when going anywhere in the GTA. GTA West may not be necessary right now but it will be eventually. That is unless the province buys back the 407 to fulfill its true potential and intent, which would never happen, but that's another story altogether.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The province doesn't have to buy back the 407 as it's a 99-year lease. So it ends... I forget but around 85 years from now.

Who knows,maybe the consortium will want out a few years early?

So I guess the question is how far away "eventually" is, when assuming we'll need this highway and what assumptions you can make about driving (eg. Driverless cars) that far in the future...

 

[rbt]

The province doesn't have to buy back the 407 as it's a 99-year lease. So it ends... I forget but around 85 years from now.

It ends just in time for all the bridges and the roadway base to need a rebuild (estimated 100 year life-span for most parts).

 

[TOareaFan]

Buying back the 407 (even if possible) would be a very tough political sell.....it would cost billions (for a variety of reasons it would cost way more than they sold it for) and would add zero capacity to the network.

 

[jcam]

It ends just in time for all the bridges and the roadway base to need a rebuild (estimated 100 year life-span for most parts).

These types of agreements usually specify the remaining-life that has to be there at handback, so maybe the bridges have to have at least 25 years remaining life, for example (meaning the operator will have to refurb and fund it through the tolls).

 

[doady]

Honestly, I don't think the GTA West highway is a bad idea. If you build a highway, it should be outside of the urban area, right? But obviously there would have to be strict controls on development or something so the highway remains outside of the urban area.

Look the European cities. They mostly build highways outside of urban areas. Why is that approach bad for GTA? It seems to me that is the way highways should be built.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Honestly, I don't think the GTA West highway is a bad idea. If you build a highway, it should be outside of the urban area, right? But obviously there would have to be strict controls on development or something so the highway remains outside of the urban area.

Look the European cities. They mostly build highways outside of urban areas. Why is that approach bad for GTA? It seems to me that is the way highways should be built.

I think that the idea of suburban expressways is that it induces development in the area surrounding it, contributing to sprawl. However if somehow through development controls the areas stay relatively undeveloped it might work.

 

[andrewpmk]

If the GTA West highway is tolled like 407 East then it probably won't be busy. It will mostly be used by people taking trips that bypass the GTA. Then again, if the tolls are as high as the 407 East, then tolls will pay for a large fraction of the construction cost.

 

[Haljackey]

I have made an interchange in SimCity 4 inspired by the 400 / 401 junction in Toronto.

Click here for a full size image: https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/779/23269149944_398dc3de30_o.jpg

Location: https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.7169943,-79.5163695,16.63z

Smaller image below: