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Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

disagree, traffic would be way worse and lakeshore would be no better
For a while, then traffic would likely be better overall. There’s plenty of evidence of this exact thing happening all over North America when highways are removed. There’s nothing special about Toronto to say it’ll be any different.

Aside from the speed limit and lights on lakeshore meaning the same trip would be a lot longer, you can't add lanes in a lot of spots (ex, around ontario place)

After more than 80 years since induced demand was first observed, can we stop flogging the idea that adding lanes in any way helps?

Whenever something is going on at bud/cne/you name it lakeshore is a parking lot.

So, my friend, is the Gardiner. These drivers could opt for the GO, which has direct or very close connections to most big stadiums along the lake.

Having a highway shoulder helps the ambulances coming to hospital row. Also a crash on one doesn't totally nullify the other but then basically all east/west traffic would stop.
It does already anyways. A stoppage on one right now just diverts traffic to the other; then that one becomes a parking lot too.
 
For a while, then traffic would likely be better overall. There’s plenty of evidence of this exact thing happening all over North America when highways are removed. There’s nothing special about Toronto to say it’ll be any different.



After more than 80 years since induced demand was first observed, can we stop flogging the idea that adding lanes in any way helps?



So, my friend, is the Gardiner. These drivers could opt for the GO, which has direct or very close connections to most big stadiums along the lake.


It does already anyways. A stoppage on one right now just diverts traffic to the other; then that one becomes a parking lot too.
Everyone here treats induced demand like it works exactly the same 100% of the time. NOBODY is driving for fun. The TTC and go are not an alternative for a lot of trips that happen.
Having more lanes and routes means a crash doesn't bring east west movement in the city to a halt. The TTC had it's 3rd fire in a week today.

Induced demand also states removing lanes will lead traffic to go down but that didn't happen because it's not a magical rule. Toronto has the busiest stretch of highway in the world people are not driving if they have a reasonable alternative. have you EVER taken the go during an event? it's miserable! I don't take it because aside from all the drunk people coming out of a jays game or BMO field. The crowding is insane even when extra trains are brought in. The go lots in Toronto on lakeshore west have only a handful of spots as well. I've driven to long branch and mimico only to come across a full lot 4 hours before the game stated.

Stop acting like everything is a silver bullet. We need investment in all modes
 
Stop acting like everything is a silver bullet. We need investment in all modes
Again, the “Toronto is different” argument.

And quite honestly, the city has spent so much more on cars than just about anything other than the police. Bikes, pedestrians and public transit end up last on the list. Hell, we have one of the least publicly subsidized public transit systems in North America. We expect the TTC and GO to pay 100% for themselves through fares, but scream until we’re blue in the face if we do much as suggest car drivers pay their fare share.

With heavier and bigger cars (electrics and SUVs), the maintenance costs and traffic levels go up, even if the number of drivers doesn’t change a single person. The selfish status quo of “cars dominate” needs to die. Appeasing drivers takes money away from programs that more desperately need it like public transit, housing and the homelessness. All so Joe X can drive every day from Burlington with little personal cost because home prices are better there. That’s a massive slap in the face there.

Remove the Gardiner and I guarantee there’ll be much more interest in (and money to put into) public transit and other modes.

And don’t give me the “but how will goods and services get into the city?”-trope. I have a number of truck drivers in my family and they’d all love to not have to deal with the current levels of cars that end up in the core. And frankly, commuter vehicles aren’t bringing anything but their drivers into the city.
 
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The original plan was to end the Gardiner near Dufferin, run into the Front Street Extension just north of the Lakeshore tracks, and let it flow into downtown. In the east, the traffic would all go onto Richmond/Adelaide, and the Don Roadway.

Lakeshore would be a lot more functional then.
I remember. Maybe it's time to revive this plan.
 
Again, the “Toronto is different” argument.

And quite honestly, the city has spent so much more on cars than just about anything other than the police. Bikes, pedestrians and public transit end up last on the list. Hell, we have one of the least publicly subsidized public transit systems in North America. We expect the TTC and GO to pay 100% for themselves through fares, but scream until we’re blue in the face if we do much as suggest car drivers pay their fare share.

With heavier and bigger cars (electrics and SUVs), the maintenance costs and traffic levels go up, even if the number of drivers doesn’t change a single person. The selfish status quo of “cars dominate” needs to die. Appeasing drivers takes money away from programs that more desperately need it like public transit, housing and the homelessness. All so Joe X can drive every day from Burlington with little personal cost because home prices are better there. That’s a massive slap in the face there.

Remove the Gardiner and I guarantee there’ll be much more interest in (and money to put into) public transit and other modes.

And don’t give me the “but how will goods and services get into the city?”-trope. I have a number of truck drivers in my family and they’d all love to not have to deal with the current levels of cars that end up in the core. And frankly, commuter vehicles aren’t bringing anything but their drivers into the city.
Toronto is fundamentally different tbh. If you're going east to west you have 2 options and both have severe capacity reductions right now. The "least subsidized" argument is BS since nobody seems to care about the capital budget! Are you seriously going to tell me the TTC gets less investment than YRT?

We have some of the most expensive projects in the world going on, we've just gotten Onefare which will lead to tens of millions more in subsidies but lets not count that because it's inconvenient to the narrative.

With heavier and bigger cars (electrics and SUVs), again false narrative. The biggest issue is trucks! Ontario has some of the highest weight limits in the continent. The difference between a corolla and a model s is tenths of a percent vs one of those cement trucks dropping concrete all over the road.

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Remove the Gardiner and I guarantee there’ll be much more interest in (and money to put into) public transit and other modes.

We can't even remove crackheads and other people causing issues from the TTC, why do you think you'll get buy in before you at least make people feel safe? Half of Torontonians don't feel safe on the ttc according to a new poll.

It's funny people will scream all day one should use the GO or TTC to get to events but doesn't seem to comment on the crush load of passengers, drunk hooligans' etc when I reply. Consider why people ACTUALLY chose to drive and then work from there.
 
Toronto is fundamentally different tbh. If you're going east to west you have 2 options and both have severe capacity reductions right now. The "least subsidized" argument is BS since nobody seems to care about the capital budget! Are you seriously going to tell me the TTC gets less investment than YRT?

If you want to talk capital, are you seriously going to try and tell me that the Vaughan extension was for the benefit of Torontonians? The forthcoming Yonge extension?

Last I checked, the TTC subsidy per rider was less than a dollar. The YRT, well over $4. Yep, they actually lose money per trip.
We have some of the most expensive projects in the world going on, we've just gotten Onefare which will lead to tens of millions more in subsidies but lets not count that because it's inconvenient to the narrative.

Capital money is great for buying votes and photo shoots, and padding the pockets of government-friendly construction companies and developers. If it doesn’t come with operating funds it soon becomes useless. See; that time we came damn close to shutting down the Sheppard line entirely.

The TTC has routinely had one of the lowest amounts of operating subsidy in North America. Time and time and time again. And yes, much lower than the YRT.


With heavier and bigger cars (electrics and SUVs), again false narrative. The biggest issue is trucks! Ontario has some of the highest weight limits in the continent.
Yes, because commercial transport trucks are the real problem here. Shake your head, man. A Kia EV9 weighs nearly 6000lbs. Ford F-150 lightning? almost 7000 lbs. the new electric Humvee, nearly 10000lbs. If the weight of the average car goes up by 25-40% AND they’re getting bigger in general, that is going to take a tangible toll on infrastructure.

When was the last time the commercial GVWR was changed?

The difference between a corolla and a model s is tenths of a percent vs one of those cement trucks dropping concrete all over the road.
And I will point out that the Gardiner was built to the standards of the mid 1950s, when the weight of the average standard sized sedan was about 3700lbs.

Curb weight of a (subcompact) Corolla? About 2950lbs. A model S by the way, ranges between 4500lbs-4700lbs


Cool pic bro, but the spilling of concrete is irrelevant to this thread.

We can't even remove crackheads and other people causing issues from the TTC, why do you think you'll get buy in before you at least make people feel safe? Half of Torontonians don't feel safe on the ttc according to a new poll.

Ahh, one of those “I’m all for public transit if it doesn’t cost me in taxes, create tolls, or take money from absolutely anything car-related”-people, huh?

It's funny people will scream all day one should use the GO or TTC to get to events but doesn't seem to comment on the crush load of passengers, drunk hooligans' etc when I reply. Consider why people ACTUALLY chose to drive and then work from there.
It’s still a choice.

Drunks are annoying, but not illegal and shows they’re being at least somewhat responsible if they’re drivers. And not every ride on public transit is either crushed, not full of drunks. You’re just projecting.
 
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Ahh, one of those “I’m all for public transit if it doesn’t cost me in taxes, create tolls, or take money from absolutely anything car-related”-people, huh?
Since when did gaslighting someone for pointing out a real flaw in public transit become cool? It's pure statistics that less people feel safe than they used to. It's not useful to be ignorant to one side if you point out flaws to the other. It's like a pro-car person just ignoring anything bad you say about highways.
 
If you want to talk capital, are you seriously going to try and tell me that the Vaughan extension was for the benefit of Torontonians? The forthcoming Yonge extension?

Last I checked, the TTC subsidy per rider was less than a dollar. The YRT, well over $4. Yep, they actually lose money per trip.

You're misunderstanding my point so I will clarify, saying the TTC is poor etc feels really disingenuous when they're getting tens of billions in subsidies for projects. This is just my opinion but adding to the operating budget wouldn't make as much of a difference as things like state of good repair which would be capital improvements. Yes other cities get a bigger subsidy per rider but this would always be the case because the TTC has enough ridership that it doesn't totally need to rely on subsidies.

Capital money is great for buying votes and photo shoots, and padding the pockets of government-friendly construction companies and developers. If it doesn’t come with operating funds it soon becomes useless. See; that time we came damn close to shutting down the Sheppard line entirely.

The TTC has routinely had one of the lowest amounts of operating subsidy in North America. Time and time and time again. And yes, much lower than the YRT.



Yes, because commercial transport trucks are the real problem here. Shake your head, man. A Kia EV9 weighs nearly 6000lbs. Ford F-150 lightning? almost 7000 lbs. the new electric Humvee, nearly 10000lbs. If the weight of the average car goes up by 25-40% AND they’re getting bigger in general, that is going to take a tangible toll on infrastructure.

How many Hummers do you see driving around? Also Shake your head, man? Why are you being so aggressive?

When was the last time the commercial GVWR was changed?


And I will point out that the Gardiner was built to the standards of the mid 1950s, when the weight of the average standard sized sedan was about 3700lbs.

Curb weight of a (subcompact) Corolla? About 2950lbs. A model S by the way, ranges between 4500lbs-4700lbs



Cool pic bro, but the spilling of concrete is irrelevant to this thread.

Again, like why are you being so aggressive?



Ahh, one of those “I’m all for public transit if it doesn’t cost me in taxes, create tolls, or take money from absolutely anything car-related”-people, huh?

This is ridiculous, I literally said I support investment in all forms. Did you bother to ask my opinion on things like a vehicle registration tax? Did you ask if I'm happy Ontario scrapped the road tax? I guess it would go against your tirade to not argue in good faith.

It’s still a choice.

Drunks are annoying, but not illegal and shows they’re being at least somewhat responsible if they’re drivers. And not every ride on public transit is either crushed, not full of drunks. You’re just projecting.

Did I say every ride is full of drunks? I specifically said big events like TFC/Jays/Leafs etc which is a good chunk of days when we have nice weather.

I'll tell my partner the guys cat calling her on the train were being responsible drunks, I'm sure it'll take the embarrassment away!
 
Lol we already have the solution to rush hour congestion, lane closures, other assorted BS: work from home, or demand destruction. But unfortunately corporate greed is preventing that from being fully implemented.
 
Consider why people ACTUALLY chose to drive and then work from there.
This has always been my mentality towards transit. The goal should be to make transit enticing to drivers. Convenient, fast, safe, clean, etc.

Problem is a lot of people within the urbanist community would rather slag on drivers, gaslight them, and take their cars away from them. It's no surprise drivers choose to double down on driving, purely out of spite.

One of the reasons I'm a huge proponent of FAST/ Rapid transit is because drivers will reconsider their choice to drive if they see a train/ bus fly by them. But if we continue to construct above ground LRTs that constantly stop at red lights, or are forced to take 90° turns that slow the train down, drivers will witness this and it will only reaffirm in their minds that they made the right choice to drive. Build the 403 bridge in Hamilton, bury the Crosstown LRT in Scarborough, make the streetcars faster when going over intersections.
 
Yes, because commercial transport trucks are the real problem here. Shake your head, man. A Kia EV9 weighs nearly 6000lbs. Ford F-150 lightning? almost 7000 lbs. the new electric Humvee, nearly 10000lbs. If the weight of the average car goes up by 25-40% AND they’re getting bigger in general, that is going to take a tangible toll on infrastructure.

When was the last time the commercial GVWR was changed?


And I will point out that the Gardiner was built to the standards of the mid 1950s, when the weight of the average standard sized sedan was about 3700lbs.

Curb weight of a (subcompact) Corolla? About 2950lbs. A model S by the way, ranges between 4500lbs-4700lbs
Just so you know, pavement engineers don't even count regular cars/SUVs/trucks when calculating pavement design thicknesses. It is ALL related to how many heavy trucks (tractor trailers/18 wheelers) are expected.
 
Just so you know, pavement engineers don't even count regular cars/SUVs/trucks when calculating pavement design thicknesses. It is ALL related to how many heavy trucks (tractor trailers/18 wheelers) are expected.
And those trucks and 18 wheels weight have not only increase weight wise, but the length of them. 40' was standard when the Gardiner open with 53' the norm today. There is a lot less of them since industries have moved out of the waterfront area, but what is there truck wise now is more than than what was there 50 years ago.
 
Induced demand also states removing lanes will lead traffic to go down but that didn't happen because it's not a magical rule. Toronto has the busiest stretch of highway in the world people are not driving if they have a reasonable alternative. have you EVER taken the go during an event? it's miserable! I don't take it because aside from all the drunk people coming out of a jays game or BMO field. The crowding is insane even when extra trains are brought in. The go lots in Toronto on lakeshore west have only a handful of spots as well. I've driven to long branch and mimico only to come across a full lot 4 hours before the game stated.
We took the Go to and from Hamilton to stay with some friends for the eclipse. On the return trip there was also a Jays game and a Leafs game, so the trains were packed. It was fine.

My in-laws thought taking the Go was beneath them, so they drove. They sat on the Gardiner for two hours.
 

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