Prostitution

[shyne68]

dt_toronto_geek, you must live in denial or see the world through rose-coloured glasses (which I envy you for because I see the world for what it truly is)..we aren't talking MINORITY as you put it...the MAJORITY of sex-trade workers are in fact minors, and or disabled young males and females or persons who are vulnerable (addicts, single mothers, abused men and women). I think it's rather presumptuous to assume that most sex-trade workers are in the 'business' because that's what they want to do. Anyone who has any experience in dealing with prostitutes knows that all too often they are tempted with money and drugs, that only lasts for so long, then, like puppets, they are deprived of these 'addictions' and basically forced to continue on with the sex-trade or face beatings, withdrawal (horrible), and sometimes even death. Legalizing 'pimps' does nothing to protect the vulnerable people they pick to 'use'. To assume that by doing this will discourage them from 'human trafficking' and 'exploitation of minors' is simply false. Have you read the papers? Watched the news? Story after story of pedophiles and serial rapists, do you honestly believe in your delusion that legalizing solicitation is going to stop any of that? That those who need help will seek it out? Dream on...until society works together as a whole, until unity is once again (if it ever existed) available, those that are less fortunate, less able-minded, and those that are vulnerable will always be victimized by the predators of the streets, and pimps are among those. They don't obey the laws now, what makes anyone think they will obey 'rules and guidelines' set out by the government if they legalize these pimps? I wish I were more optimistic, I wish I could say that, yes maybe it would help, but in reality, it won't! As long as there are runaways (minors) and as long as there are those that are incapable, they will be taken advantage of because whether or not anyone wishes to admit it, the demand is out there, and there is NO WAY that will ever become legal...so...the best way to try and protect our children and disabled persons is to put the pimps that use them and the men and women that 'hire' them, behind bars where they belong. It may not be the best solution..but it's a step.

 

[js97]

If Toronto really wants to curb prostitution, you would go after the Hohns, the guys that are demanding the sex. Those are the ones that usually have a lot more to lose.

Sweden managed to curb prostitution dramatically when they did this.

Prostitution will always be around, it's a matter of managing it.

And yes, there will always be 'pimps' exploiiting the women.

Look at the burlesque industry, it's all the same thing!

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

dt_toronto_geek, you must live in denial or see the world through rose-coloured glasses (which I envy you for because I see the world for what it truly is)..we aren't talking MINORITY as you put it...the MAJORITY of sex-trade workers are in fact minors, and or disabled young males and females or persons who are vulnerable (addicts, single mothers, abused men and women). I think it's rather presumptuous to assume that most sex-trade workers are in the 'business' because that's what they want to do. Anyone who has any experience in dealing with prostitutes knows that all too often they are tempted with money and drugs, that only lasts for so long, then, like puppets, they are deprived of these 'addictions' and basically forced to continue on with the sex-trade or face beatings, withdrawal (horrible), and sometimes even death. Legalizing 'pimps' does nothing to protect the vulnerable people they pick to 'use'. To assume that by doing this will discourage them from 'human trafficking' and 'exploitation of minors' is simply false. Have you read the papers? Watched the news? Story after story of pedophiles and serial rapists, do you honestly believe in your delusion that legalizing solicitation is going to stop any of that? That those who need help will seek it out? Dream on...until society works together as a whole, until unity is once again (if it ever existed) available, those that are less fortunate, less able-minded, and those that are vulnerable will always be victimized by the predators of the streets, and pimps are among those. They don't obey the laws now, what makes anyone think they will obey 'rules and guidelines' set out by the government if they legalize these pimps? I wish I were more optimistic, I wish I could say that, yes maybe it would help, but in reality, it won't! As long as there are runaways (minors) and as long as there are those that are incapable, they will be taken advantage of because whether or not anyone wishes to admit it, the demand is out there, and there is NO WAY that will ever become legal...so...the best way to try and protect our children and disabled persons is to put the pimps that use them and the men and women that 'hire' them, behind bars where they belong. It may not be the best solution..but it's a step.

I've got my opinions tightly focused on a progressive 21st century in Canada. What crystal ball tells you that the sex trade industry will never be fully legalized here? Not under Harper to be sure, but I don't need a crystal ball to tell me that!
You seem to have some professional experience on this issue, I don't, but my real life encounters have been considerably different. Hold on while I take off my rose-coloured glasses here and I'll explain a few of mine.
Now, I've never seen a man, woman or transsexual working the streets who appears underage nor have I ever seen an ad showing anyone who appears underage either (not that I really look too closely to be honest as I don't 'pay to play') but I'm not saying there aren't some kids under 17 out there selling their wares, I'm sure there are and that's wrong. I've been acquainted with several people over the years who are/were sex trade workers. One was a longtime neighbour & we eventually became quite friendly. She did it mostly part-time while she was putting her self through UofT, she works as a lawyer now at 1 Queen East. We still email & talk from time to time, she's married and has a 10 or 11 year old child now. Two other acquaintances are Church St. drag queens who both do out calls part-time (as men) and one of them works for the City by day, they also don't do drugs. I have a very handsome friend who, after a nasty breakup a few years ago, took to placing ads on Craigslist and does it on an occasional basis, he enjoys it. I could go on with a couple more examples but you get my drift. What I can tell you is that no one that I know who has done this has any psychological problems (that I'm aware of), drug or alcohol problems and they don't work for pimps - they do what they do willingly as I believe one should be able to do with his or her own body. I remember my neighbour laughing at me back in the 90's when I asked her if she had a pimp when I was getting to know her better. I should also mention that I've lived quite a while between two addresses where sex trade workers are fairly common. When I lived at Bay & Grosvenor many of the guys on the strip knew my dog by name as I'd often walk my dog along Grosvenor Street at night and chat them up a bit when they'd ask to visit with my dog for a few minutes. Where I live now can also be somewhat active at times. I've never noticed any sex trade worker who appeared high (we've got quite a rising crack problem in my neighbourhood so I can spot them at 40 paces) and haven't seen any pimp-like characters hanging around on the street or keeping an eye on their workers from vehicles.
I'm fairly well briefed about human trafficking problems around the world. It's a terrible thing but I never discussed that so don't be lecturing me on that issue. Human trafficking involves more than just sex trade workers.
I think your taking absolute worse-case examples and are trying to shape opinions on this issue when in fact it's not all as ugly as you propose. I don't deny what you state above, I acknowledge that there are surely some people who are pressured into this, drugged up and controlled but I can tell you that from another perspective there is another side that is not all bad. Once again I'll state that I believe that fully legalizing and licensing the sex trade industry can only be a good thing, especially for the type of people you describe.

 

[Electrify]

My rebuttal for prostitution is like weed:

With weed (or any drugs) you are using a non-natural and foreign substance into your body. With prostitution, you are simply acting on your own natural sexual instincts. Not saying that weed/drugs should be criminalized, but it is not a sound argument to compare them to prostitution. As EnviroTO mentioned, if prostitution was legalized and/or less of a taboo, then people could satisfy their sexual needs without necessarily taking advantage of their partner emotionally.

If Toronto really wants to curb prostitution, you would go after the Hohns, the guys that are demanding the sex. Those are the ones that usually have a lot more to lose.

Sweden managed to curb prostitution dramatically when they did this.

I think a deeper problem is why do we have "Johns" in the first place. Though there are more women than men, we live in a society where women seem to command all the power when attracting a partner. Women get all the advances, even when not necessarily that attractive.

Thing is for guys, we have no friggin clue on what attracts the opposite sex! I've read that it helps to be more dominant and controlling, but to be honest, many times I've done this it just pisses off the girl I'm interested in. If men knew how to attract women sexually and could work towards it, then maybe there would be less Johns willing to spend money for sex.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Why don't we refer to the woman actually involved in and advocating for this industry. Like on all topics there is a wide spectrum of opinion; However, I find that many seem to advocate for de-criminalization but not for legalisation (take Sasha Van Bon Bon). The distinction still seems fuzzy to me but in general I believe this means that they want the act of prostitution to not be a criminal offence but they want to avoid full government regulation. Instead they want to be a self-governing profession, like engineering, versus being a regulated industry, like taxi cabs.

I support this however I remain concerned about the peripheral problems associated with prostitution, namely: public nuisance, exploitation of minors, explotation of immigrants, drug activity, commercial activity in residential buildings etc. Note the word peripheral. There are pre-existing mechanisms to deal with any of these problems outside the framework of a discussion of prostitution. The only problem is they are not in reality well enforced, and so prostitution can become to people who have to live around it a really annoying activity.

P.S. Electify, for the purpose of this discussion I think we need to just accept the reality of why prostitution is an overwhelmingly one sides affair gender wise. I will point out though that I think there are several thinks you might want to reconsider with respect to how you approach the questions you pose in the second part of your argument.

 

[shyne68]

I've got my opinions tightly focused on a progressive 21st century in Canada. What crystal ball tells you that the sex trade industry will never be fully legalized here? Not under Harper to be sure, but I don't need a crystal ball to tell me that!
You seem to have some professional experience on this issue, I don't, but my real life encounters have been considerably different. Hold on while I take off my rose-coloured glasses here and I'll explain a few of mine.
Now, I've never seen a man, woman or transsexual working the streets who appears underage nor have I ever seen an ad showing anyone who appears underage either (not that I really look too closely to be honest as I don't 'pay to play') but I'm not saying there aren't some kids under 17 out there selling their wares, I'm sure there are and that's wrong. I've been acquainted with several people over the years who are/were sex trade workers. One was a longtime neighbour & we eventually became quite friendly. She did it mostly part-time while she was putting her self through UofT, she works as a lawyer now at 1 Queen East. We still email & talk from time to time, she's married and has a 10 or 11 year old child now. Two other acquaintances are Church St. drag queens who both do out calls part-time (as men) and one of them works for the City by day, they also don't do drugs. I have a very handsome friend who, after a nasty breakup a few years ago, took to placing ads on Craigslist and does it on an occasional basis, he enjoys it. I could go on with a couple more examples but you get my drift. What I can tell you is that no one that I know who has done this has any psychological problems (that I'm aware of), drug or alcohol problems and they don't work for pimps - they do what they do willingly as I believe one should be able to do with his or her own body. I remember my neighbour laughing at me back in the 90's when I asked her if she had a pimp when I was getting to know her better. I should also mention that I've lived quite a while between two addresses where sex trade workers are fairly common. When I lived at Bay & Grosvenor many of the guys on the strip knew my dog by name as I'd often walk my dog along Grosvenor Street at night and chat them up a bit when they'd ask to visit with my dog for a few minutes. Where I live now can also be somewhat active at times. I've never noticed any sex trade worker who appeared high (we've got quite a rising crack problem in my neighbourhood so I can spot them at 40 paces) and haven't seen any pimp-like characters hanging around on the street or keeping an eye on their workers from vehicles.
I'm fairly well briefed about human trafficking problems around the world. It's a terrible thing but I never discussed that so don't be lecturing me on that issue. Human trafficking involves more than just sex trade workers.
I think your taking absolute worse-case examples and are trying to shape opinions on this issue when in fact it's not all as ugly as you propose. I don't deny what you state above, I acknowledge that there are surely some people who are pressured into this, drugged up and controlled but I can tell you that from another perspective there is another side that is not all bad. Once again I'll state that I believe that fully legalizing and licensing the sex trade industry can only be a good thing, especially for the type of people you describe.

But you see, this is why I addressed you personally in my last post, perhaps I was wrong to do so,however, you insist on using your OWN experiences and relating them to prostitution as a whole. While yes, you can use your own experiences, good, bad or indifferent to form your opinions on this topic, so too will everyone else who sees it fit to respond. There is no right or wrong answer, but only suggestions and opinions. Ultimately yes, the government calls the shots, But until such a time as we can protect those that are vulnerable and do what is necessary to put an end to exploitation, I think that prostitution should be discouraged and the way to do this, is tighten the laws and penalties for those that participate. And further, I don't think you removed your rose-coloured glasses..the experiences you shared don't seem to be negative, in fact, you practically glamourised them, which to me, sounds like someone who is smitten with the idea of prostitution and sex-trade workers in general, therefore, refusing to see it for what it is...but I digress, prostitution has been and always will be around, and I will always be one of many that argue to try and elminate as much of it as possible so that the children of the future grow up respecting their bodies, their minds and their abilities to do much greater and productive things in life.. My opinion.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

guilt by association

imagine were were talking about chinese factories for a second:

...you must live in denial or see the world through rose-coloured glasses (which I envy you for because I see the world for what it truly is)..we aren't talking MINORITY as you put it...the MAJORITY of chinese factory workers are in fact minors, and or disabled young males and females or persons who are vulnerable (hungry, single mothers, abused men and women). I think it's rather presumptuous to assume that most chinese factory workers are in the 'business' because that's what they want to do. Anyone who has any experience in dealing with chinese factory workers knows that all too often they are tempted with the promise of better wages and more breaks, that only lasts for so long, then, like puppets, they are deprived of these 'benefits' and basically forced to continue on with the production or face beatings, heat exhaustion (horrible), and sometimes even death. Legalizing 'chinese factories' does nothing to protect the vulnerable people they pick to 'use'. To assume that by doing this will discourage them from 'human trafficking' and 'exploitation of minors' is simply false. Have you read the papers? Watched the news? Story after story of slave drivers and men with whips, do you honestly believe in your delusion that legalizing chinese factory work is going to stop any of that? That those who need help will seek it out? Dream on...until society works together as a whole, until unity is once again (if it ever existed) available, those that are less fortunate, less able-minded, and those that are vulnerable will always be victimized by the predators of the industry, and managers are among those. They don't obey the laws now, what makes anyone think they will obey 'rules and guidelines' set out by the united nationst if they legalize these managers? I wish I were more optimistic, I wish I could say that, yes maybe it would help, but in reality, it won't! As long as there are runaways (minors) and as long as there are those that are incapable of skilled labour, they will be taken advantage of because whether or not anyone wishes to admit it, the demand is out there, and there is NO WAY that will ever become legal...so...the best way to try and protect our children and disabled persons is to put the managers that use them and the men and women that buy "their products", behind bars where they belong. It may not be the best solution..but it's a step.

i think that if exploitation of children, exploitation of the vulnerable, coercion, violence, abuse, etc. is to be associated with sex work, it can also be associated with work in general. have you ever heard of forced labour camps? human trafficking for labour jobs? child slave labour? slavery? dangerous working conditions? doing a job you don't like and find degrading just because you need the money? is the real evil prostitution? or those things i just mentioned that can be associated with just about any delivery of services?

did it ever occur to you that your view on prostitution, that it is degrading, is how you view it? maybe others have differing opinions on what is degrading and what isn't. maybe to some sex workers, cleaning toilets or sweeping floors is more degrading.

is sex degrading? is making money degrading? is enjoying sex degrading? if one wants to have sex with a particular person for money, both consenting adults should not be the subject of criminal charges. if you're going to associate paedophilia with prostitution, you might as well associate it with sexual intercourse. maybe people who have sexual intercourse should be rounded up and arrested.

 

[Northern Light]

shyne68: but you see, this is why I addressed you personally in my last post, perhaps I was wrong to do so,however, you insist on using your OWN experiences and relating them to prostitution as a whole. While yes, you can use your own experiences, good, bad or indifferent to form your opinions on this topic, so too will everyone else who sees it fit to respond. There is no right or wrong answer, but only suggestions and opinions. Ultimately yes, the government calls the shots, But until such a time as we can protect those that are vulnerable and do what is necessary to put an end to exploitation, I think that prostitution should be discouraged and the way to do this, is tighten the laws and penalties for those that participate. And further, I don't think you removed your rose-coloured glasses..the experiences you shared don't seem to be negative, in fact, you practically glamourised them, which to me, sounds like someone who is smitten with the idea of prostitution and sex-trade workers in general, therefore, refusing to see it for what it is...but I digress, prostitution has been and always will be around, and I will always be one of many that argue to try and elminate as much of it as possible so that the children of the future grow up respecting their bodies, their minds and their abilities to do much greater and productive things in life.. My opinion

.

Let me chime in here, and start with this............perhaps i missed it Shyne.....but I have neither seen you cite objective evidence or fact; nor your personal experience in making the statements you have.

I respect your right to an opinion, but I would like to see you clarify your statements as a mixture anecdote, suspicion and personal preference on your part, rather than an objective truth.

*****

I quite like what Prometheus had to say.........

I am fortunate thus far in not needing to procure sex........and in having a job I wouldn't trade for that one either.....

That said........if I was giving a choice of working at Walmart for min. wage, and no benefits, or spending a day giving and receiving sexual pleasure, I'm would more than likely choose the latter. Walmart would strike me as far more degrading, inherently.

To be clear, of course there are, particularly among street workers, cases of coercion, drug addiction, and risks to physical health and personal security.......

None of which is excusable or desirable.

But, I would suggest that evidence indicates street prostitution to have declined markedly in Toronto and Canada, that escorts out number those by several to one (at least 6 to 1) and that the latter are by and large, more secure, better paid and more likely to be of age, and in the profession by choice.

Certainly there are risks, even then, though a great many of these are imposed by the illegality of hiring security, opening/ running a brothel, etc.

Were this profession legal, in the full and proper sense, that would change, to the largest measure for the better.

****

In the end though, here lies the practical question to me.

Whose life is it? Whose body is it?

If I want to drink (I love a good Pinot Noir) ......or Smoke (no thanks)....or do pot (not my thing, but if its yours, go right ahead); or have sex with any other consenting adult....free or paid......that would be MY Business, or that of the person in question.

The body, the mind, the soul belong to their owner, and that is the person with whom they are associated, not the State, not Society, not Family, not Neighbours. As long as no ill is caused to a third party....no one should impose their moral choices on another.

 

[toraerach]

Our laws currently are pretty hypocritical when it comes to sex work. Why is it legal to pay someone to have sex on camera for the purpose of distribution and sales but not legal to pay someone for a private session? Child pornography is illegal, but it's mere existence does not warrant the criminalization of the entire pornographic industry. Human trafficking is illegal also. Decriminalizing prostitution would not take away the state's powers to prosecute and punish those guilty of child abuse and human trafficking.

As for people with a history of mental disorders or abuse - ask yourself why we don't stop them from becoming pornographic actors/actresses, why we don't stop them from drinking away their pain, etc. In both cases, a strong social safety net that provides support for those people living with mental disorders and those people coping with a history of abuse can and will do far more to keep them off the streets/out of the classifieds than any archaic law (that may just land them in jail). We do nothing to protect the most vulnerable in society when we legislate them into criminals.

I think it's entirely possible for a grown adult to respect themselves while working in the sex trade. I think it's entirely possible for a grown consenting adult to not feel like a victim when they engage in sexual activities for the purpose of financial gain. I know for a fact that what we are doing now isn't helping anybody - except maybe those people who are so insecure about their own sexual habits (i.e. monogamy for one) that they need the state to sanction their lifestyle while condemning any deviancy (keep in mind here that what falls into the "deviant" category is always changing - a few generations ago a consenting same-sex couple engaging in sexual acts was thought to be deviant while a man demanding sex from his unconsenting wife was not - the boundaries between what is and isn't acceptable will continue to shift over time, perhaps including in our approach to the sex trade).

 

[tkip]

The suggestion that legalizing and removing the taboo of prosituion would allow men to spare their partner's feelings by going to prositutes is pure insult. You're actually endorsing men cheating on their partners.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

...but I digress, prostitution has been and always will be around, and I will always be one of many that argue to try and elminate as much of it as possible so that the children of the future grow up respecting their bodies, their minds and their abilities to do much greater and productive things in life.. My opinion.

I respect your opinions, this is after all (usually) a civil discussion board, but I'd like my views respected too. For the record I think kids growing up in the last 20 or 30 years have far less respect for their bodies (although I don't really like that expression as I think sex is a healthy and wonderful thing) with all the sexual innuendo thrown into advertising everywhere, and what's happening now with social networking sites, cell phones and such. I think you know where I'm going with this.

Our laws currently are pretty hypocritical when it comes to sex work. Why is it legal to pay someone to have sex on camera for the purpose of distribution and sales but not legal to pay someone for a private session?

Very good, that was going to be my next point yesterday but I wasn't in the mood to get into it last night. Billions are made each year off erotic films through home media (video, DVD etc.), millions of websites around the world, magazines and hell you can even push a button and watch it through your cable or satellite service. Everyone flickering erotically in those scenes was paid to use their body to have sex or to perform some type of erotic act in front of a camera. I've also seen websites where you can go one-on-one with someone for pay (and often for free) at the other end of the connection, that's well known as cybersex.

The suggestion that legalizing and removing the taboo of prosituion would allow men to spare their partner's feelings by going to prositutes is pure insult. You're actually endorsing men cheating on their partners.

There are plenty of single men and women out there who may prefer the no nonsense company of a sex trade worker, marriages where spouses may still love each other (or not) but no longer or have a physical relationship for one reason or another or perhaps a couple is looking to bring in a 3rd person for a little bit of spice. No fuss, no mess this way. Besides, if a man or woman cheats on their partner I'd suggest that it's just as likely to happen, if not more so, with someone that they know or have just met rather than with a sex trade worker. That's just a reality and it's their business, no one else's.

 

[urbandreamer]

Here's my prediction: in 4010, ppl will still be paying for sex.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Here's my prediction: in 4010, ppl will still be paying for sex.

nope. people will have devices which feed sensory information to their brains and be entirely immersed into an artificial reality. religious leaders will condemn these devices because prostitutes can't earn a living anymore. consumer advocate groups will defend the mind devices because they prevent people from being financially exploited from prostitutes.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

.

 

[kool maudit]

there is a certain strain of moralism that insists -- absolutely insists -- that the "consenting adults" trope can never be used to protect any sphere of vice, as the very fact that the participants have consented to vice means that they are damaged or ill in some fashion that precludes consent.

it's a catch 22. in any case, the legal and the good should not be one and the same.