Prostitution

[tkip]

mary magdalene, should she have been crucified next to jesus for being a prostitute? what about her customers?

I'm assuming you're trying to be funny. Kind of a tasteless joke though.... Legalizing prositution is not going to change the ugly nature of this business. The men need to be held accountable.

 

[tkip]

There are a lot of good reasons for legalizing and regulating sex trade work, but that won't automatically eliminate the abuse of minors, etc. That part of the trade would still be in demand and can still be hidden from view.

The only logical reason in my opinion for legalizing it is the safety issue. And I don't think things would actually be any safer.

There would still be an underground, there would still be human trafficing and the women will still be humilated and we will keep giving men a free pass on bad behaviour. Some people honestly think that prositution will become a cleaner, more wholesome industry if it were legal. And I don't believe this for a moment.

Once again, when I talk about restraint, accountability for people's behaviour and the need for morals people put their hands over their ears.

 

[doug]

Kind of a tasteless joke though....

about a fairy tale? get over yourself.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

I'm assuming you're trying to be funny. Kind of a tasteless joke though.... Legalizing prositution is not going to change the ugly nature of this business. The men need to be held accountable.

well, thanks for answering the question the way you did. i know exactly where you're coming from and why your views on prostitution are the way they are.

legalizing prostitution will not eliminate human trafficking, rape, slavery, child abuse, coercion, humiliation, disease, organized crime, etc. no more than criminalizing sexual intercourse would. even if holding hands was illegal, all those bad things would still happen. the reason why we should legalize prostitution is because we shouldn't be punishing people who pay for sex or make money selling sex (of their free will). also, with prostitution legal, prostitutes need not fear the police when they need help. legalizing prostitution will not legitimize human trafficking, rape, slavery, child abuse, coercion, humiliation, disease, organized crime, etc.

and i have news for you, every business has an ugly nature. if we were to make illegal every business that has an ugly nature, everything would be illegal. if betty enjoys sex and wants to sell some fun time in her pants and bob wants to get in on that, leave them the hell alone. they are not legitimizing human trafficking, nobody is being coerced, nobody is being raped, no children are being sold to organized crime syndicates for the purpose of sexual exploitation, and the only humiliation that might take place is when bob pulls down his pants and betty laughs at his small penis. leave bob and betty alone for doing an act that is perfectly legal when money isn't involved.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

tkip:

There would still be an underground, there would still be human trafficing and the women will still be humilated and we will keep giving men a free pass on bad behaviour. Some people honestly think that prositution will become a cleaner, more wholesome industry if it were legal. And I don't believe this for a moment.

Of course there will be - just like legalizing alcohol doesn't prevent people from getting hooked on it. The point being - the activity will exist in a realm where it is at least possible to put in place mechanisms for protecting sex workers. And it wasn't like things were any better for sex workers in the "good olde days" - you should recall during what period of history does exploitation of women occurs most frequently.

And speaking of ethics and the concern over womenhood, I suppose we should be expecting some changes from a certain religious order in that regard? Wonder who is going to hold THAT one to account?

AoD

 

[tkip]

Somone has to provide evidence that legalizing prostitution actually makes things safer for the women. Amsterdam apparently isn't safer nor women not controlled.

Some people are advocating that adults consenting to sex for cash as something private and no business of others but it doesn't work this way in the real world. People will move in and exploit and it's the women that will be exploited. Opening the door for allowing sex for pay is most certainly a moral issue but more importantly, it opens the door to abuse.

Networks will be set up, run by men and women will be treated as cattle as is the case today. I find it incredible that those thinking themselves progressive in their thinking, have no problem with women being seen as play things for men. Because at the heart of this matter, this is really what paying for sex is a all about. Control, power and ownership.

It's always a woman that talks about this and the darker side of the sex trade with me. The guys never want to deal with this. They just get defensive.

I find it very interesting that those that advocate for women's rights and their right not to be owned or controlled somehow have no problem with a man buying a women's body and then discarding her when he's done. All the while ignoring that most of these men have wives and girlfriends. I'm not against making things safer for the women.

I'm questioning why we're not dealing with the movitvations of the men who think it's okay to buy another human being.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

I find it very interesting that those that advocate for women's rights and their right not to be owned or controlled somehow have no problem with a man buying a women's body and then discarding her when he's done. All the while ignoring that most of these men have wives and girlfriends.

are you sure you're not confusing women with blow up plastic sex dolls? buying a body? owning? discarding? are you serious? this is what you think all forms of prostitution are? do you believe all forms of labour are buying slaves, owning slaves & then discarding them when the job is done?


let's have a reality check of a prime example of prostitution:

-woman offers specific services.

-man pays for specific services.

-after providing services, woman tells man "time expired. to continue delivery of services, pay more money."

-man says "i don't have any more money".

-woman says, "goodbye, thank you, come again."

-man says "i thought i had to pay for that?"

-woman says "lol. take a hike, i have paying customers waiting."

-man says "i'm gonna report you to the better boobies bureau."

-woman laughs as she pockets money.


this is prostitution. it's not rape, coercion, slavery, child exploitation, etc.

 

[tkip]

are you sure you're not confusing women with blow up plastic sex dolls? buying a body? owning? discarding? are you serious? this is what you think all forms of prostitution are?

You know something Prometheus The Supremo...

Your lame jokes show that you don't understand the dark nature of this business. When a man buys a woman's body for the intention of sexually doing what he wishes to it and then walking away later when he's done, it's not rocket science what just happend. You purposedly claiming to not understand is your refusal to acknowledge that men see these women as nothing but tools and something to be discarded once they're done with them.

And these men don't care how the women are supplied for them or what happens to them during the process. Once again, it's always been women that have talked to me about the nasty business that is the sex trade.

I honestly think you haven't a clue what goes on within the sex industry and the sheer human misery involved. You're trying to sugar coat the endless horror stories of what happens out there with your snide remarks. Come down to where my work is located and see the hordes of girls on the streets, desperate, addicted to drugs and watch the endless stream of my co-workers buying sex from them before heading home to their women.

Or the guys that go to the brothels and strip clubs after work and where immigrant women are brought in to service them. That's the reality.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

You know something Prometheus The Supremo...

Your lame jokes show that you don't understand the dark nature of this business. When a man buys a woman's body for the intention of sexually doing what he wishes to it and then walking away later when he's done, it's not rocket science what just happend. You purposedly claiming to not understand but is your refusal to acknowledge that men see these women are nothing but tools and something to be discarded once they're done with them.

I honestly think you haven't a clue what goes on within the sex industry and the sheer human misery involved. You're trying to sugar coat the endless horror stories of what happens out there with your snide remarks. Come down to where my work is located and see the hordes of girls on the streets, desperate, addicted to drugs and watch the endless stream of my co-workers buying sex from them before heading home to their women.

Or the guys that go to the brothels and strip clubs after work and where immigrant women are brought in to service them. That's the reality.

When a man buys a woman's body for the intention of sexually doing what he wishes to it and then walking away later when he's done

#1 prostitution is not about buying a woman's body. also, if a woman agrees to have anything sexually done to her, that is her business. if a man does anything he wants to the woman without her agreeing to it, that is rape. as for walking away when he's done, would you like him to stay and observe the next transaction? what's wrong with walking away? does the prostitute want the man to stay with her?

You purposedly claiming to not understand but is your refusal to acknowledge that men see these women are nothing but tools and something to be discarded once they're done with them.

and the prostitutes see the men as nothing more than a source of income, do be discarded once they're done milking them of their cash.

I honestly think you haven't a clue what goes on within the sex industry and the sheer human misery involved. You're trying to sugar coat the endless horror stories of what happens out there with your snide remarks. Come down to where my work is located and see the hordes of girls on the streets, desperate, addicted to drugs and watch the endless stream of my co-workers buying sex from them before heading home to their women.

Or the guys that go to the brothels and strip clubs after work and where immigrant women are brought in to service them. That's the reality.

you keep associating other concepts with prostitution. do you need a venn diagram? women who have sex for money & are all drugged out & are miserable & on the streets & desperate & addicted to drugs & have sex with men in relationships & are immigrant women & have been trafficked & are strippers - are prostitutes and involved in prostitution BUT not all prostitutes involved in prostitution - are all drugged out & are miserable & on the streets & desperate & addicted to drugs & have sex with men in relationships & are immigrant women & have been trafficked & are strippers.

 

[tkip]

Where to begin.

The problem Prometheus, is that the majority of prosititutes are not working in nice, safe, decent conditions where they and they alone control their own fate and finances and don't have to deal with pimps, gangs and dangerous situations. The reality is that the vast majority work in unpleasant and in many times, nightmarish scenerios and conditions.

But your refusal to face this reality is why we have this continuing problem. Once again, men don't want to hear this. It's always a woman that comes forward and talks about the long road they took to get out of this business. It's always a woman that talks to me about just how ugly this business is and how it's the men that drive it.

So many women on this planet go through the ugly nature of providing sexual services for a never ending tsnumai of men. There is no Pretty Woman glamorizing happening here.

And there is a very real market, mostly overseas, for minors. That people try to deny this is an insult. You keep presenting this simplistic arugment that a man approaches a woman in some harmless neogtiation for sex and that's that. Any talk of the darker reality of the business is met with open scorn and denial with a couple of snide remarks thrown in for good measure.

Your attitude is actually trivalizing the very real messy and miserable reality for those involved in this business. It's something you and my male co-workers at work have in common.

It goes something like this..... See no evil, hear no evil, do no evil.

And if there's nothing wrong with selling sex for money then I'm sure you and the other guys on this board wouldn't mind dating one of these ladies or bringing her home to meet your parents and proudly telling them what she does for a living. Or encouraging your daughters, sisters, friends to pursue selling sex for money because of the perks.

Big trips, high self esteem, understanding boyfriends, something I can proudly tell my kids about.

No? Didn't think so...... Just keep those blinders on.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Where to begin.

The problem Prometheus is that majority of prosititutes are not working in nice, safe, decent conditions where they and they alone control their own finances and don't have to deal with pimps and gangs and dangerous situations. The reality is that the vast majority work in unpleasant and in many times, nightmarish scenerios and conditions but your refusal to face this reality is why we have this continuing problem.

Once again, men don't want to hear this. It's always a woman that comes forward and talks about the long road they took to get out of this business. It's always a woman that talks to me about just how ugly this business is and how it's the men that drive it.

So many women on this planet go through the ugly nature of providing sexual services for a never ending tsnumai of men. And there is a huge market, mostly overseas, for minors. That people try to deny this is an insult.

Next you're going to deny that there isn't this massive human trafficing network right across the globe or that women from many countries aren't forced into the sex trade abroad and right here in Canada including our many strip clubs. That women aren't treated as cattle, abused very frequently by their pimps and johns and tossed away afterwards.

I don't know what else to say on this matter. The concept of buying sex from women and knowing that so many of them are bought, traded and forced into selling sex is something you're in denial about.

and i'm sure keeping prostitution illegal will remedy these problems or at least not contribute to them being worse.

The problem is that majority of prosititutes are not working in nice, safe, decent conditions where they and they alone control their own finances and don't have to deal with pimps and gangs and dangerous situations. The reality is that the vast majority work in unpleasant and in many times, nightmarish scenerios

and you know what's to blame for that - legalized prostitution!

 

[gristle]

When a man buys a woman's body for the intention of sexually doing what he wishes to it and then walking away later when he's done, it's not rocket science what just happend. You purposedly claiming to not understand is your refusal to acknowledge that men see these women as nothing but tools and something to be discarded once they're done with them.

I think you are missing the part about regulated. In the legalized, regulated portion of prostitution there would likely be some form of intervention to make sure - as best as possible - that people were not being abused. A number of posters here have indicated that there would still be an underground trade in children and so on, which would remain quite illegal - regardless of prostitution being legalized.

Ironically, tkip, in your defence of women you tend to rob all possible female participants of any agency or free will in choosing this trade. You also appear to cast all men who visit prostitutes as some form of malevolent persona out to abuse them. The world is hardly so black and white, nor can it be cast in terms of personal ideals. There is a reason why it is sometimes called the "oldest profession." Prostitution exists due to the reality of human sexuality and one of the most fundamental forms of exchange between people: essentially: you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Or put more directly: you want to get off, and I can let you do that with me - but it's gonna cost you.

honestly think you haven't a clue what goes on within the sex industry and the sheer human misery involved. You're trying to sugar coat the endless horror stories of what happens out there with your snide remarks. Come down to where my work is located and see the hordes of girls on the streets, desperate, addicted to drugs and watch the endless stream of my co-workers buying sex from them before heading home to their women.

No doubt there is a part of the sex trade that results in cruelty and degradation. The aim of legalizing and regulating the practice would result in an effort to do away with as much of that misery as possible. You must admit, there is a big difference between people who choose to sell sex for money, and those who have no choice but to do so in order to support a physical addiction. It's an error to confuse the two as being the same on the basis of sexual activity alone.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Where to begin.

The problem Prometheus, is that the majority of prosititutes are not working in nice, safe, decent conditions where they and they alone control their own fate and finances and don't have to deal with pimps, gangs and dangerous situations. The reality is that the vast majority work in unpleasant and in many times, nightmarish scenerios and conditions.

But your refusal to face this reality is why we have this continuing problem. Once again, men don't want to hear this. It's always a woman that comes forward and talks about the long road they took to get out of this business. It's always a woman that talks to me about just how ugly this business is and how it's the men that drive it.

So many women on this planet go through the ugly nature of providing sexual services for a never ending tsnumai of men. There is no Pretty Woman glamorizing happening here.

And there is a very real market, mostly overseas, for minors. That people try to deny this is an insult. You keep presenting this simplistic arugment that a man approaches a woman in some harmless neogtiation for sex and that's that. Any talk of the darker reality of the business is met with open scorn and denial with a couple of snide remarks thrown in for good measure.

Your attitude is actually trivalizing the very real messy and miserable reality for those involved in this business. It's something you and my male co-workers at work have in common.

It goes something like this..... See no evil, hear no evil, do no evil.

And if there's nothing wrong with selling sex for money then I'm sure you and the other guys on this board wouldn't mind dating one of these ladies or bringing her home to meet your parents and proudly telling them what she does for a living. Or encouraging your daughters, sisters, friends to pursue selling sex for money because of the perks.

Big trips, high self esteem, understanding boyfriends, something I can proudly tell my kids about.

No? Didn't think so...... Just keep those blinders on.

Then just leave things as they are here, it all seems to be working out so great as is. Oh, and after we toss everyone into prison relating to "sex crimes", ban all adult films & images from video stores, corner stores, the Internet and Rogers cable. Make it all go away Mr. Cleaver! Things seemed so simple back then didn't they... or were they...?
Shesh! Who really has the blinders on.

 

[shyne68]

The blinders are on those that are of the opinion that the vast majority of prostitutes are doing so willingly. That there is nothing more involved in the act of prostitution other than a man/woman paying for sexual services. The reality is, that if a man/woman works in the sex-trade industry, to do so 'alone' would be almost impossible to do so safely. Most prostitutes belong to 'pimps' otherwise, their survival on the streets would be severely impaired. Brothels, bawdy houses, escort services are all operated under the same pretence...men/women offering their services with a cut of the pay going to their 'pimp' or 'escort service managers'. These pimps don't wait for women to approach them, they go looking for them. And if you think for one minute they walk up to a group of women at a local university, or the lunch room of a law firm....take the blinders off for just a moment..the pimps scope out areas known to harbour teenagers, drug addicts, mentally ill persons. Then they make promises, they use flattery, the spoil, they treat them all like the princesses they deserve to be...they offer cheap housing in their 'boarding houses'...thus, not only do they make money off of their bodies, they take any source of gov't assistance (if they have any) from them as well, thereby, exploiting them sexually and financially. Now, that same young woman wants to leave..decides she doesn't like it, how easy do you think that is going to be? Do you think a pimp is just going to 'let her go'...hardly, it's not that black and white. Once a woman 'works for a pimp' they ARE owned. And leaving becomes virtually impossible without the threat of violence and even death. THAT is the reality of prostitution. The glitz and glamour (if it really exists) only lasts a short time, long enough to make these men/women dependent on their pimps, the rest, is what you read in the papers. THIS is the argument why it must remain illegal for anyone to support prostitution and those that do, should be punished to the full extent of the law. The prostitutes themselves...if anyone wants out of the sex-trade business, everything should be done to guide them and protect them while doing so, that way, they CAN have the opportunity to heal, to re-stabilize and find the necessary supports they need to succeed. It has nothing to do with violating anyone, it has EVERYTHING to do with protecting those from being violated. Again, my opinion.

 

[tkip]

Grristle, I honestly understand the argument for legalizing to make things safer but are there actual stats showing this to be the case?

There's still a underground market and trade apparently in places where they've legalized prositution. And I don't think I am dumbing down the free will of women that choose to get involved in this industry. I think if they aren't forced physically then they're forced by survival and desperation. That's my understanding and view on that matter.

And I think Shyne68 has it nailed down. People are trying to glamorize the industry instead of recognizing the true nature of how women are supplied to the male clients.

And I'm been saying that men going to prositutues is the main problem. I've been making a very clear case that it's because of them that the trade even exists. I don't let the guys off the hook. I've listen those guys at work that constantly brag about the hookers they frequent and make jokes and there is zero respect for these women.

They've also betrayed their wives and girlfriends waiting at home while out shopping for women and no one wants to condemn these men. Guys everywhere go silent on this matter.

To these men and all the other men out there paying for sex, the women are completely deposable to them. And most women in the trade are treated lke deposable human beings. And none of these guys care at all what happens to the women they pay or how they got there and what happens afterwards to them.

There's no social conscious here or sense of moral shame. My rant has been about the hidden victemization behind the scenes in the sex industry and while I've posted that a lot fo porn is actually degrading towards women, I'm not saying porn should be illegal. Only that we have to take a look at the themes porn sends out and the impact on young people.

We live in society now where culture is telling young girls to be trampy and for the boys to line up to get some. But back to topic at hand. Yes, the men are to blame and shame on them for thinking that they can buy sex and creating a problem that is entirely the result of their behaviour.

I know this is making some of you guys squirm but the average hooker isn't living a glamarous lifestyle like you see on shows like Secret Life of a Call Girl.